Keening Bog-stone

[DavetheLost]

I do get that discussion has shifted to if a PC has one, however did start with several LMs stating outright that the item would be banned from their campaigns.

I have seen far too many of this type of discussion engaged in a sort of gamer navel-gazing concerning issues that have not arisen in actual play, and. Are not likely to arise in actual play. Often they are raised by people who do not, have not, and do not intend to actually play the game. They just view reading and analyzing game rules as a hobby in it self.

Since no-one on this thread has stated "I have a player who wants to play a Lakeman" with or without Keening Bog-stone, and the predominant response from those who are running or planning games has been "it's banned", one can, I hope, see why I am concerned that the whole issue may be something of a paper tiger.

For those who are actually confronted by a Keening Bog-stone in actual play, please let us know how it has worked out.

And please understand I do not mean any of this to be a troll.

[MordorsB1tch]

If, as a GM, you are not reading the rules and trying to anticipate potential problems before they happen...you could be in for a whole bunch of trouble. Part of the GMs role is keeping the game running smoothly.

My comments, and decision to ban it from my game, stems not from having seen one in play...but from seeing similar devices/powers in other games forcing retcons and player/gm sulks/disagreements. You dont need to stick your hand into a fire to know its going to burn.

I did like a suggestion earlier in the thread howeevr which suggested PCs with a keening bogstone might be immune to surprise from those creatures. Thats not a very good power...but its a start. A definitive power not easily forgotten.

[Rich H]

I did like a suggestion earlier in the thread howeevr which suggested PCs with a keening bogstone might be immune to surprise from those creatures. Thats not a very good power...but its a start. A definitive power not easily forgotten.

Another option is that, when applicable, you could award an extra success die to those gained from the Battle Roll at the beginning of an encounter when being ambushed - ie, the stone's warning prepares the owner and allows him to find advantageous ground, etc for the battle ahead.

[MordorsB1tch]

That sounds more easily managed Rich. Perhaps a bonus dice in battle or an extra opening volley. Plus immune to surprise.

[DavetheLost]

Hmm, those suggestions do help to put some quantifiable game mechanics on what happens when you are forewarned about the orcs hiding in the trees ahead.

I like it for smoothness of play and narration. Instead of " 'We are marching down the trail alert for a possible ambush.' 'The Lakeman's Keening Bog-Stone begins to wail softly. There are orcs lurking ahead. What do you do?' Discussion of tactics requests for additional information, etc." Or worse " 'Three orcs jump out of the trees at you in ambush.' 'No they don't. We have a keening bog-stone!' 'Curses! Ret-conned again."

We can have "As you make your way along the twisting forest path you are alerted by the quiet wailing of the Lakeman's keening bog-stone. Orcs! The foul creatures must have been lurking in ambush! You leap into battle stances." Add appropriate dice, etc. or " 'Three orcs leap out of the trees at you in ambush!' 'But we are not surprised because I have a keening bog-stone.' 'That's right. Add an extra success die to your battle roll."

Of course it doesn't help with this..."We're trying to sneak through the Orc warrens beneath Dol Guldur, what do you mean you can't shut that thing off!?"

[SirKicley]

On a slight tangent, what would you folks rule in a situation where you've got a Lakeman with a Keening Bog-stone who is standing close (5 feet or less) to a player with a high Awareness? Another player has Quick of Hearing? Or the stone's in a pocket with some coins which might add a metallic clinking because of vibrations, with another player nearby?

I'm asking more for completeness than anything else. This way all the potential issues - and the answers! - are in a single topic.

Personally, I would:

• Quick of Hearing: Notices the sound.
• High Awareness: If within 5 feet (ie, melee distance in most games) the Aware character is likely to hear the bog-stone. For every +5 feet I might increase a TN by +2. (Note: I'm not saying I would demand a check every time, just that I might use something like this as a general guideline for determining if they could hear it.)
• Metallic Clinking: Another character within 5 feet, without either above abilities, and the surrounding area is not distracting (sound or movement), maybe at TN 16. Impossible beyond that distance. So your average froggy marsh, cricket filled field, bear wandering past, or farmer asking for news, would completely distract others from noticing.

As noted though, I wouldn't necessarily offer these options to any of the players unless they think to question why their character didn't notice the sound, along with providing a reasonable explanation why they should have heard the sound.

While I won't argue the efficacy of these adjudications of yours, I will question the merit of their perceived necessity. At this point, you've over-complicated an otherwise simple virtue with so much crunch and mechanics that it's mind-bogling to consider it.

At this point, I'm thinking - if we need that much legislature to adjudicate the virtue, it's best to remove it from play.


I am one who agrees that upon first reading it - it seemed over powered; just as much so as the cultural blessing for the Lakemen.

This is unfortunately the eventuality of every RPG I've ever played (and that equates to a lot): the latter supplements always seems to overshadow the core releases in the "power" or effectiveness of the new crunchy stuff for new classes and races; for whatever reason. Perhaps it's lack of new ideas, wanting to "re-wow" the audience and needing to up the ante to get that same "high" from the release, or just playtesting the new releases in a vacuum instead of alongside the original core releases. Video game expansions and MMOs fall prey to the same fate as well.

[Francesco]

One mechanic I consider for the future might be an item whose benefit is combat advantage dice - in fact a glowing sword or bog stone could work like this - giving the players a bonus that they can choose to use to their advantage in a fight rather than a straight detection of the enemy ... could work?

Absolutely. It is indeed a fine idea, if you envision that the stone alerts the company just in the nick of time...

Francesco

[Francesco]

This is unfortunately the eventuality of every RPG I've ever played (and that equates to a lot): the latter supplements always seems to overshadow the core releases in the "power" or effectiveness of the new crunchy stuff for new classes and races; for whatever reason.

Games Workshop fans experience this so badly that they gave the dynamic a name: the "Codex creep".

Francesco

[SirKicley]

This is unfortunately the eventuality of every RPG I've ever played (and that equates to a lot): the latter supplements always seems to overshadow the core releases in the "power" or effectiveness of the new crunchy stuff for new classes and races; for whatever reason.

Games Workshop fans experience this so badly that they gave the dynamic a name: the "Codex creep".

Francesco

And unfortunately these things lead to what I call as "pendulum effect". The devs create something new that they want to make the fan (and would be fans) wowed. Then the newbies and many veterans of the system jump to the new thing cuz it's more powerful than the previous. Suddenly everyone is doing that and abandoning what the game was designed on in the first place. Meanwhile those who hate change and refuse to jump on bandwagons complain that the new content is too overpowered in comparison to their trusty old get-up.

So the devs listen and go and nerf and hack the new content (instead of making more pragmatic sense of simply empowering the original content a bit), and the end result is nerfed way too much and now the new cool stuff that everyone joined the system for is suddenly butt-hurt and feels their stuff is useless and they complain that the pendulum swung too far in the nerf category.

So the devs go back and re-swing the pendulum to give them a different facelift.....rinse and repeat. On go-eth the pendulum.


For me and my players - it's a rule of thumb that if one option is the obvious option - it's too powerful. Like Haste spell in D&D. It's THE most selected 3rd level spell. And nearly every player agrees. When the drow expansion was given to D&D Online - 75% of the players switched cuz their point-by build was 5 points higher. So what would most people prefer playing??? DUH!!!


While I sound critical to this whole process - I will at least admit that I couldn't game-design any better than most of the publishers so while I am critical (and cynical and skeptical) of subsequent releases, I do appreciate the difficult task that it is.

Robert

[Garn!]

While I won't argue the efficacy of these adjudications of yours, I will question the merit of their perceived necessity. At this point, you've over-complicated an otherwise simple virtue with so much crunch and mechanics that it's mind-bogling to consider it.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with posting crunchy comments for this game, despite it's generally relaxed rules implementation.

While I realize that crunchy rules isn't something favored by most TOR players, I find distinct and clearly written information to be of more use. Vague, generic commentary does not help anyone trying to learn. Any game judge can decide to simplify game mechanics but first you have to have a reasonable understanding of the factors which might affect the subject you're judging. In other words, you have to know a subject in order to ignore irrelevant factors.

So could I have said "just wing it depending on distance" for High Awareness, instead? Absolutely. While it conveys the same general thought process, it doesn't provide unsure LM's with the degree of support they might desire. Everyone is different, some need more assistance, others less. I write for those who might need more, expecting that those who need less are automatically going to simplify things.


PS: All of the above is off-topic with regards to the original post. If you would like to discuss this further, perhaps we should open another topic?