Ambushes

[aerothopter]

Hi everyone!

I'm wondering how your LMs handle ambushes, as my party seems quite fond of using them to get a strong start or advantage over the enemy. The rules as written really don't offer any sort of exciting option--

Lowering the TN of the Battle roll only really affects one or two of my players (they're the ones with any pips in the Battle skill)
Removing opening volleys is minimally effective, as often the enemy doesn't have ranged capability
Having initiative simply brings the ambush in line with most (defending) combats anyway.

What I'm thinking is something closer to Savage Worlds' "the drop" rule, where you get a bonus to hit and to damage on the round where the enemies are unaware. This is more exciting and (given the difficulty of setting up and executing a good ambush--if any player fails a roll, it all goes down the drain?!) brings the benefits in line with the risks of attempting an ambush.

Thoughts? House rules?

[jamesrbrown]

The benefit of a player-hero ambush in TOR is precisely that the player-heroes can be the attackers AND hold the initiative. Normally, if they were to be the attackers, the adversaries would hold the initiative as the defenders. Also, if the player-heroes are successful at ambushing, they may gain opening volleys PLUS hold initiative while the enemy does not get any opening volleys. That means potentially the player-heroes would gain several attacks before the enemy could even respond (like 2-3 each). I think that's a pretty big advantage.

[Robin Smallburrow]

JamesRBrown has it right: the RAW give a huge advantage to the side that has the initiative: ambushes therefore should be hard to achieve, thus TN should be based on the noisiest PC not the quietest

As i see it your players want both their cake and be able to eat it - but u should also try to see things from the adversary POV - most orcs like to attack from ambush too!

Robin S

[Beleg]

I'm curious as to what sort of enemies your group is fighting. Most orcs have at least one ranged attack, for instance. Equally, I know that when one of my groups was ambushed by orcs, one of them was almost dead before the players even got a turn, since the orcs got opening volleys AND the first turn. As Robin and James have pointed out, ambushes really change the battle

[Rich H]

Yeah, add me to those supporting the idea that the Ambush rules are fine as they are.

In my "To Journey's End and the Eagles' Eyrie" adventure one scene is where the company cross an orc patrol. My players' PCs managed to successfully ambush the group and, with the opening volleys and holding initiative, decimated it to less than 50% strength turning it from a dangerous encounter where they would have been outnumbered to one that they easily won.

[Cordeval]

A question about initiative, related to ambushing.

What effect does winning initiative have on a battle?
Do adversaries ever go first in a round?
Does losing initiative mean only that a) PCs cannot roll for Battle Advantage, and b) PCs cannot send off a volley that cannot be responded to?

[Chris Gardiner]

We had our first PC ambush this week, and going first for the whole combat is such a huge thing. And that's not even counting a free volley, etc.

Ambushes are great. I endorse them.

[Aiwendil]

We had our first PC ambush this week, and going first for the whole combat is such a huge thing. And that's not even counting a free volley, etc. Ambushes are great. I endorse them.

Are you referring to our PbM game Chris, or the one you are running?

For the group here, we have six PCs + one NPC, for a total of seven friendlies versus x number of baddies. And yes, between the battle rolls, decisions to use bonuses to what effect, opening volleys, and then melee, quite a few exchanges and rolls are needed.

That being said, the more I play this game, the more I appreciate its mechanics... Not that I needed to be extra sold on it, but there it is nonetheless...

[Robin Smallburrow]

Cordeval

in answer to your queries:
1) the side with the initiative goes first in combat- i forget which page of the Adventurers book
2) adversaries only go first if they have the initiative- this doesnt happen often!
3) who has initiative determines the TN for Battle rolls - i think it is TN 14 normally but TN 18 if opponents have initiative- check the combat rules for more
4)opening volleys are not affected - the LM should resolve these before Initiative is determined, unless one side is Surprised - only in this case volleys not allowed

Robin S

[Chris Gardiner]

We had our first PC ambush this week, and going first for the whole combat is such a huge thing. And that's not even counting a free volley, etc. Ambushes are great. I endorse them.

Are you referring to our PbM game Chris, or the one you are running?

Oo - both, now! In my own game on Monday we had a couple of characters ambush some orcs while they were fighting the other players.

And in the PbP game we've now had our first ambush on an orc encampment - having the initiative let us thin our opponents quickly.

Their chief is proving more resilient, though...