Mithril!

[Beran]

This is one of the problems I have the reward upgrade system in the game. I can see re-fitting the armour, repairing it and adding some new plates to help add to the protection of a suit of armour. But, I don't see how you can go from a normal piece of armour and "say" it is mithril just because you have added 3+ upgrades. How did you change a suit iron rings into a suit containing the most prized metal in the game world?

[Glorelendil]

Spending XP on valor to upgrade their initial armor: After a certain number of upgrades, the character simply exchanges his/her armor for a mithril armor. The mithril armor would have plot immunity like any other reward. Applying Cunning Make and Close Fitting 7 times each to the same armor won't change the material from which it is made.

So does that mean he can give his old armor to a friend?

I understand the concept behind Rewards: characters get cool stuff at a predictable rate without the "looting" mechanism of most RPGs. But it also introduces all kinds of storytelling paradoxes that require creative/awkward fluff to explain.

For example, I loathe the fluff of "you learn a new way of sharpening your weapon" to explain Fell/Grievous/Keen. Why can't I then teach the rest of my Fellowship how to do the same thing? Or just sharpen their weapons for them while we're camping?

(Plus it's just a downer to think that your Keen axe is just a more carefully sharpened version of the one your character started with. It's hard to get excited about that.)

In Hermes Serpent's campaign my Woodman just got a new Keen axe by having a Dwarf forge it for him, but how am I going to explain adding "Fell" to it later on?

P.S. Beran made the above post while I was typing. Right on.

[Rich H]

How did you change a suit iron rings into a suit containing the most prized metal in the game world?

If you mean how does it physically transform from one thing into another - it doesn't. Unless it's Optimus Mithril.

[Rich H]

In Hermes Serpent's campaign my Woodman just got a new Keen axe by having a Dwarf forge it for him, but how am I going to explain adding "Fell" to it later on?

I'm assuming you're going to understand what I mean when I say "that particular attribute/characteristic becomes narratively and/or mechanically important to the player and his character". It's the same idea as swapping a current trait from out of your character to a new one. The character doesn't necessarily lose the old trait but it is no longer mechanically and/or narratively important to them.

Some things can be explained with physical changes all of the time, other things can sometimes be explained that way too but there are also options to explain it in other ways. Not every alteration in a game needs a 'real world' explanation - peoples' tolerance of this does vary widely though but sometimes you just have to accept that an RPG is at it's heart a game, telling a make believe story, and it being a simulation of the real world is often a very distant consideration within its design.

[Rocmistro]

I'm not saying the story telling parts aren't hamfisted, guys, I'm just trying to resolve the mechanics. I totally understand why the game was written with the rewards system, and yet i totally get the awkwardness that comes about from trying to justify it all.

I don't know if my justification will work for everyone here, but for me, the idea that works best is that the first time you "upgrade" something, it already has all the qualities and potential to become whatever it is ultimately going to become. HOWEVER, it takes the wielded a bit of time (2 more valor upgrades to be specific) to fully realize (through practice and experience) the full power of the upgraded item. So elfcrusher, in the case of grimfast, when Jakk upgrades his weapon, he makes it keen and fell (and grievous, if you add that on later) all at the same time. However, it takes you some time to get intimately familiar with the new weight and balance and dimensions, etc

In the case of Mithril this gets more troublesome. As a loremaster I'm sure I'd find some kind of resolution that involved lots of behind the scenes stuff, including the forfeiture of treasure (for maintenance) and perhaps ultimately a swap out after the original armor had been upgraded three times.

[Rich H]

In the case of Mithril this gets more troublesome. As a loremaster I'm sure I'd find some kind of resolution that involved lots of behind the scenes stuff, including the forfeiture of treasure (for maintenance) and perhaps ultimately a swap out after the original armor had been upgraded three times.

Under the current rules, I think if someone wants a mithril item then I'd simply get them to save up the XP for it and once it was fully paid for (obviously that would mean costing the item properties) I'd include it in my game so the character could then acquire it. Or, you could let them have it once they'd paid half the costs with the agreement from the player that all future XP had to be put towards paying the debt before getting anything else. I've done both in other games with similar systems for rewards/items - eg, Exalted.

[Rocmistro]

That works too, rich. Would you allow a different level of quality to a Mithril item, rich, or just have it be an aesthetic interpretation of a high quality item?

[Glorelendil]

In Hermes Serpent's campaign my Woodman just got a new Keen axe by having a Dwarf forge it for him, but how am I going to explain adding "Fell" to it later on?

I'm assuming you're going to understand what I mean when I say "that particular attribute/characteristic becomes narratively and/or mechanically important to the player and his character". It's the same idea as swapping a current trait from out of your character to a new one. The character doesn't necessarily lose the old trait but it is no longer mechanically and/or narratively important to them.

Some things can be explained with physical changes all of the time, other things can sometimes be explained that way too but there are also options to explain it in other ways. Not every alteration in a game needs a 'real world' explanation - peoples' tolerance of this does vary widely though but sometimes you just have to accept that an RPG is at it's heart a game, telling a make believe story, and it being a simulation of the real world is often a very distant consideration within its design.

Sure, of course I understand. And I'm far from being a realist (I could care less how much chain weighs vs. plate, or how common two weapon fighting really was, or what the range is of a longbow, etc.)

I'm just saying that acquiring that special or magical item/sword/whatever is a common fictional trope...from King Arthur to the Nibelungen to Tolkien...for a reason: it's fun.

The Reward upgrade system is an awkward fit with that trope.

[Rich H]

That works too, rich. Would you allow a different level of quality to a Mithril item, rich, or just have it be an aesthetic interpretation of a high quality item?

I'd personally go with Mithril providing certain qualities to an item. We know it makes stuff incredibly light with no loss in strength/resistance of the item. Does it also make things more resistance to damage or sharper etc than their 'mundane' material equivalent. Maybe/maybe not...

[Rich H]

I'm just saying that acquiring that special or magical item/sword/whatever is a common fictional trope...from King Arthur to the Nibelungen to Tolkien...for a reason: it's fun.

The Reward upgrade system is an awkward fit with that trope.

I don't disagree. Similarly, I'm just trying to present options to fix it like the rest of you are.