Deadly archery and Stinging Arrow vs Fair Shot

[Southron]

In the AB the Elves have the virtues of deadly archery and stinging arrow.

Deadly Archery pg.129
When you spend a point of Hope to invoke an Attribute bonus on a ranged attack roll using a bow, you receive an additional bonus equal to your basic Heart score.

Stinging arrow pg 130
Spend a point of Hope when you let loose an arrow and it will fly up to twice its normal range, OR spend a point of Hope after a successful ranged attack using a bow or great bow to produce an automatic Piercing blow.

Hobbits get Fair Shot pg 131

When you make a ranged attack, you can roll the Feat die twice and keep the best result.



The Elves have to spend a point of hope to use both of their bow virtues while the Hobbits do not. It just seems to me that the Hobbits would be using hope in that dramatic moment when that shot should really count. While the Elves using hope for stinging arrow I have no issue with, it seems that perhaps they should get the two feat die roll for deadly archery and use it as the Hobbits use fair shot and have the Hobbits use the Elves deadly archery hope rules for Hobbit's Fair Shot


Any thoughts be they pro or con?

SL

[Rich H]

I think there are a couple of hobbit virtues and rewards that are overpowered compared to other cultures. Consider King's Blade:

King’s Blade (short sword)
If you roll a great or extraordinary success on an attack using a King’s blade, you automatically inflict a Piercing
blow.

... So this is the only (?) Reward for any culture that scales with weapon proficiency.

I find this as well as the Fair Shot Virtue you've highlighted above unbalancing and a bit silly as I think Elves should have Virtues at least on a par with hobbits with regard to bow use!

I've house ruled them both...

King's Blade - when the hobbit inflicts a piercing blow the target rolls one success die less on their Protection Test.

Fair Shot - is used for thrown attacks only rather than all ranged attacks and can also be used with any Common Skill relying on the hobbit's skill and accuracy at throwing (eg, applicable Athletics tests).

[SirKicley]

Personally I think Deadly Archery and Fair Shot are fairly balanced.

Hobbits getting two rolls of Feat dice (only) still requires a good amount of Success Dice or a healthy result on the Success Die in order to be effective - as the TN when in rearward is still 12 PLUS parry (and more if shield perhaps).

Where as Deadly archery would be less frequently used, but still VERY effective - especially against heavily armored foes. Where a hobbit could burn a HOPE point and get their attribute bonus applied and even with the best of two feat dice, it's going to be a tough feat to hit a TN of 20 with such a foe. Whereas with the Deadly Archery uses the HOPE to add TWO modifiers to the roll has a much better chance of hitting those high-end TNs of armored folk - embracing the name of the ability Deadly Archery.

The other - Stinging - gets used only IF a hit occurs; thus ensuring that any HOPE expenditure is not wasted at all. It's a guaranteed chance to do a critical hit - possibly causing a wound, and for most creatures, auto-drops them unconscious.

Robert

[SirKicley]

I think there are a couple of hobbit virtues and rewards that are overpowered compared to other cultures. Consider King's Blade:

King’s Blade (short sword)
If you roll a great or extraordinary success on an attack using a King’s blade, you automatically inflict a Piercing
blow.
.

Again I don't see this as too much a problem either. It only works if you hit AND score a G/E success.

The elves bow yes uses a HOPE to inflict same - but only requires a successful attack - not a G/E success.


For further consideration: what is the TN of the protection roll needed to avoid the critical of the elf bow vs the short sword of the King's Blade? (i don't know - I don't have my book at work).

Robert

[Rich H]

Again I don't see this as too much a problem either. It only works if you hit AND score a G/E success.

The issue I have with it is that the probability of scoring a G/E successes increases as the weapon skill is increased so it scales with ability. No other Virtues and Rewards work that way - they remain static bonuses, I therefore find it to be a very strange mechanical anomaly in how such things are structured/designed within the game.

[Rich H]

Hobbits getting two rolls of Feat dice (only) still requires a good amount of Success Dice or a healthy result on the Success Die in order to be effective - as the TN when in rearward is still 12 PLUS parry (and more if shield perhaps).

The hobbit gets to roll the feat die again, doubling his chance of a G rune and even on a plain number result they'd average a score of 5.5 on the re-roll; far better than a success die result. Elves don't have very high Heart scores and they have to use Hope to get a slight bonus ranging from 2 to 4 (albeit an additional bonus to their Body score). The Feat Die gives a far better result and doesn't cost a Hope point.

I'm not sure about swapping the abilities around but I'm certainly happy I house ruled King's Reward and Fair Shot in my game as they seem far more balanced when compared to other Virtues/Rewards with regard to mechanical application and structure - eg, King's Blade reduces the protection of the opponent as the item is a deadly blade and Fair Shot allows for a re-roll but only on thrown tests/actions which is more in line with the fluff text of the Virtue.

[SirKicley]

The issue I have with it is that the probability of scoring a G/E successes increases as the weapon skill is increased so it scales with ability. No other Virtues and Rewards work that way -

Stinging arrow pg 130
OR spend a point of Hope after a successful ranged attack using a bow or great bow to produce an automatic Piercing blow.

Doesn't the increase in bow skill increase the chance of a successful ranged attack in order to trigger this ability?


Also - any reward to increases damage for each hit becomes more effective the more skill you invest in the weapon.

*(these are the two that come off the top of my head at least).

Also did you happen to have a Short Sword vs elf bow INJURY rating for me to compare? That would help me continue to believe as I do or skew my opinion a bit.

[Rich H]

Doesn't the increase in bow skill increase the chance of a successful ranged attack in order to trigger this ability?

Yes, but you have to spend a point a Hope point to access that skill. King's Blade is 'switched on' all the time.

Also - any reward to increases damage for each hit becomes more effective the more skill you invest in the weapon.

They are still flat, non-scaling, increases. King's Blade threatens a Wound and increases that probability with skill increases rather than the static Feat Die result like for everyone else. There's a bit of a whiff factor to that. Granted the chance of that increases with more success dice but that mechanic is consistent for *all* player characters.

I don't recall any Rewards that scale, they all do flat increases to damage, except King's Blade.

Also did you happen to have a Short Sword vs elf bow INJURY rating for me to compare? That would help me continue to believe as I do or skew my opinion a bit.

14 for both.

I'm not really sure why you're comparing a short sword to an elf bow? I'm not making comparisons with those and I don't think the OP is - he was comparing hobbit's Fair Shot with the Elf Virtues and suggested swapping the around. I also added that King's Blade was a Reward that I felt was odd but wasn't making direct comparisons to the elf Virtues, I was just stating it scales whereas other Rewards do not. I think the two are separate issues but fall under the same discussion (ie, potentially unbalanced Virtues/Rewards)

Perhaps it's just me, but 3 hobbits with King's Blade and then 1 more with Fair Shot are a murderous party of adventurers! More so than others in my opinion. ... And that feels a little silly.

[Osric]

I agree that hobbits get too many breaks. They need not to be crap to the point of being unplayable -- they are Player-heroes, after all, rather than yer average run-of-the-mill hobbit of the Shire -- but they still shouldn't be an actual match for their tallers and betters.

But my beef is with Stinging Arrow as an archenemy-killer. There's a Black Numenorean commanding the horde of goblins? Stinging Arrow him.
It probably IS appropriate for Wood-elves to be such good shots, but if you have such an elf in your Fellowship it means that your arch-enemies are all going to have to

• a) wear a lot of armour, to have enough of a Protection Roll for those Piercing shots to be unlikely to actually inflict a Wound, or
  b) have an arch-enemy special ability on a par with a troll's Great Size in order not to be killed outright as soon as they sustain a Wound

I can live with these, and have had to insert a b) 'on the fly' when a villain whose recurrence is essential to my campaign was downed instantly the moment the elf caught sight of him. But I'd rather there was something properly enshrined in the rules for such foes.

Cheers,
--Os.

[Southron]

Everyone thanks for your input.

I will keep Stinging Arrow as is. I am thinking Legolas' last arrow at Helm's Deep when Aragorn falls and when he downed the Nazgul's beast by the Anduin.

I will house rule the Fair Shot as Rich H as done.

SL