birthright virtues

[Rich H]

I think I will let my player use it once per character, but I will put some restrictions to prevent the eternal loop of Barding :

1- He must die from a killing blow, so dying of old age will not allow him to transfer the virtue.

2-The body of the character must also be in good condition after he die, like no head chopped or burn to ash by a dragon's fire

3: He must have a direct descendant, a son or a daughter. I think it will make my campaign interesting to force him to find a wife if he really want to use that virtue often.

Your opinions?

Rule (1) is pretty much implied in the rules for the Virtue - ie, "... You die, and let your direct descendant inherit the Birthright Virtue as an additional Cultural blessing". It doesn't say anything about retiring or dying of old age and your descendent inheriting under those conditions.

I personally wouldn't bother with rule (2) but if it fits in with your campaign and a more realistic, the body must be identified, legal setup then go with it. Personally, the descendent turning up with the older character's household signet ring, or something along those lines, would be okay in my game if a body wasn't available. So perhaps you could allow some flexibility in adjudicating such situations if they crop up?

Rule (3) is implied in the virtue itself (references to direct descendent) and it enhances the campaign and how the character/player interacts with the setting - ie, find a wife or develop some part of the story where there's the opportunity for a child to be conceived and born so I'd certainly go with that.

[Rich H]

Just another question: how do you lost your standing after resurrecting if the only people who knew you die are your compagnions? is that the resurrection instantaneous or it takes several weeks before raising from death?

It's a tough one and it's why I'd only enforce the "Standing to 0" element if it could be adequately explained. I think it depends on the situation but I think that part of the rule fits best with something along the lines of:

1) You fall off a cliff face and are washed away; presumed dead by everyone

2) Dragon fire scorching an area and your companions assume your PC is dead as they find no body

3) Your 'death' is witnessed by other people besides your companions. News of your 'demise' spreads while you are adventuring so that when you return you've been declared dead.

... Therefore explaining your PC's Standing being reduced to zero.

The issue with this is that when you return, it's likely that you look the same, and friends, companions and loved ones will stand by you so why wouldn't your Standing be returned to it's pre-death value? Personally, as the RPing opportunities to get it back to it's original value would be fun, I'd allow it.

[Beran]

Standing really doesn't effect your immediate circle of friends and family, it is how others, outside the circle view you. In this case the standing of 0 would be word of your survival getting out and no one really believing it..."It can't be him, he died at the battle of so and so. Everyone knows that."

Personally I think the only thing that could be added to the rules about Birthright is that a certain amount of time must elapse before the Hero is able to "come back from the dead" (a couple of months to a number of years). That way it is a little easier to explain the loss of standing. The hard part could be getting the Player to run another PC in the interim.

Plus you could put the onus on the Player to explain how the charcter "died" and what he was doing in the mean time.

[Rich H]

Standing really doesn't effect your immediate circle of friends and family, it is how others, outside the circle view you. In this case the standing of 0 would be word of your survival getting out and no one really believing it..."It can't be him, he died at the battle of so and so. Everyone knows that."

Yes, but if your companions are respected members of the community just like you were then their word that you are who you are is going to carry weight and influence. Additionally, if someone like Bard recognises you then your Standing isn't going to be reduced to zero just because you were presumed dead. It may be zero for a time but it would quickly be rectified once the hero returned.

[Glorelendil]

What's all this about identifying bodies, signet rings, etc?

"My character has a nephew. Everybody knows who he is. In my will I name his as my heir."

If that character dies...

"He has a half-brother. Everybody knows who he is..."

Etc.

The only thing I have a problem with is that it's probable that when your character dies it's because he got whacked in combat, not washed over a cliff or consumed in dragon fire or vanished into a crevasse with a balrog. So inventing the miraculous survival will likely be rather mundane. "Oh, good thing I was proof-reading that chapter for my cousin Bilbo and had the manuscript stuffed into my hat. Looks like it absorbed the blow!"

[Rich H]

Heh, it does feel more than a little goofy when considered, doesn't it.

Personally, on reflection, I'd house rule out the Standing of 0 element of the virtue and just RP the hero's miraculous return from the dead when they came back if it was appropriate. If they 'died' in the middle of Mirkwood then those in Dale probably wouldn't even know anyway; it'd be more of a case of "where the blood 'ell have you been?" and not "Holy crap, you look just like that dead guy. And you're hanging out with all the same people he did! Creepy".

Assuming you could adequately explain the miraculous survival, and how the supposed death was communicated back to the character's culture, then I could logically see Standing being reduced to 0 working some of the time but certainly not in all scenarios. The scenarios I've played out in my head, don't lead to any permanent loss and most don't result in a character's 'death' being presumed by their home culture.

[Beran]

It's the distances involved here that cause the real problem with Birthright. It assumes that word of your characters death gets out quickly. But, if your character is a Barding from Dale and "falls" in battle with Orcs in the Riddermark then it would be weeks...if not months before word reached your family in Dale. In fact if the members of the Company find the "dead" character it is possible they could arrive back in Dale before the news of their death. I guess removing the Standing loss makes sense.

As an aside I have to say that the concept of Standing as portrayed in TOR never really made too much sense to me; particularly the connection with wealth and Standing. I think a Renown stat based on their acts would be more appropriate to Tolkien's ME...the way it is presented just seems too D&D to me. Hmmm, perhaps time to look at adapting Decipher's old Renown system to TOR.

[Rich H]

As an aside I have to say that the concept of Standing as portrayed in TOR never really made too much sense to me; particularly the connection with wealth and Standing. I think a Renown stat based on their acts would be more appropriate to Tolkien's ME...the way it is presented just seems too D&D to me. Hmmm, perhaps time to look at adapting Decipher's old Renown system to TOR.

See my additional rules. I did just that.

[doctheweasel]

It's the distances involved here that cause the real problem with Birthright. It assumes that word of your characters death gets out quickly. But, if your character is a Barding from Dale and "falls" in battle with Orcs in the Riddermark then it would be weeks...if not months before word reached your family in Dale. In fact if the members of the Company find the "dead" character it is possible they could arrive back in Dale before the news of their death. I guess removing the Standing loss makes sense.

I think it's more likely that the character is presumed dead, whether they hear of it or not, the way Bilbo was.

[Rich H]

I think it's more likely that the character is presumed dead, whether they hear of it or not, the way Bilbo was.

That's simulated in the rules by being away from your cultural homeland and not spending Treasure to maintain your Standing rating. For me, this is something different; it's specifically tied to a Barding with the Birthright Virtue that miraculously survives death but are then presumed dead and therefore have their Standing reduced to zero (from whatever value it previously was; even 6). It's just zero because the PC has supposedly died; strikes me as odd because, as Beran describes, a PC may use this element of the Virtue, his 'death' may not even be witnessed and he may return home even before news reaches his homeland. Quite possibly considering the advice in DoM with regard to news from far off lands.