A new way to handle Standing (Alternate Rules)

[Rich H]

A few thoughts...

A) Why not just hand out more Treasure? It's not like there's much else to do with it in TOR, other than buy Standing. Answer: because flavor-wise it doesn't always work. E.g., if you save some Woodmen orphans it should be worth similar Renown/Standing as saving some Dalish merchants, but the orphans can't really afford to pay you.

It's certainly the reason why I use Renown mostly but still allow it to be 'boosted' with Treasure if players so desired. It's basically the same setup as Pendragon and Glory - you get Glory from deeds and fighting battles and the like but your character can also increase it through 'conspicuous consumption' (spending £'s).

B) If you rescue the Woodmen orphans it seems like it should affect your Standing with Woodmen more than with Dale or Erebor, so....should Renown points be specific to cultures? (Sort of like national currencies, but abstract/virtual/imaginary.) Probably not, but mostly from a complexity standpoint.

I went this way and for the reason of complexity I just increase a PCs rating in that culture's Renown when it feels right. This was largely done to avoid complexity but I preferred the granularity provided by having a rating for each culture rather tracking Renown 'points'.

C) Renown Points don't have Encumbrance, which is a benefit.

Unless you adopt some "weight of burden" rules!

D) Random idea: a modifier for any two pairs of cultures, which determines relative Standing between them. E.g., Woodmen <--> Beornings might be 1, Erebor Dwarves <--> Mirkwood Elves might be 4. A Dwarf's Standing in the Woodland Realm would therefore be Standing - 4. You could buy/earn reduced penalties in each culture, to a minimum of zero. Too complex? Would require keeping a table of modifiers on the character sheet.

This is already factored into a lot of the Encounter rules with regard to Tolerance so you'd need to be cautious as to how it would work or whether it should replace that bit of the rules.

[Glorelendil]

D) Random idea: a modifier for any two pairs of cultures, which determines relative Standing between them. E.g., Woodmen <--> Beornings might be 1, Erebor Dwarves <--> Mirkwood Elves might be 4. A Dwarf's Standing in the Woodland Realm would therefore be Standing - 4. You could buy/earn reduced penalties in each culture, to a minimum of zero. Too complex? Would require keeping a table of modifiers on the character sheet.

This is already factored into a lot of the Encounter rules with regard to Tolerance so you'd need to be cautious as to how it would work or whether it should replace that bit of the rules.

Oh I forgot about that. Yeah, it becomes redundant, although my idea is more flexible/granular. Still, I prefer RAW for its simplicity.

[Rue]

I agree about treasure not really being the point of adventuring in ME, and so the way I conceptualized it was that Treasure covers both literal gold (Bilbo's little chests tied on his pony, toll hoards, what have you) and figurative treasure/wealth--i.e. what zed and Rich and others are talking about as Renown. So I run the game with Renown as a type of Treasure that can be given to characters.

[zedturtle]

I agree about treasure not really being the point of adventuring in ME, and so the way I conceptualized it was that Treasure covers both literal gold (Bilbo's little chests tied on his pony, toll hoards, what have you) and figurative treasure/wealth--i.e. what zed and Rich and others are talking about as Renown. So I run the game with Renown as a type of Treasure that can be given to characters.

I think that Renown (or some other name) as a type of Treasure that has no Encumbrance but can only be spent on improving Standing is a good idea. I also like the idea of being able to convert XP into Renown, or earning Renown at the same rate as Experience (as Southron Loremaster suggested), are good ideas. I really like the idea that achieving certain tasks can earn a character Renown. But I agree... Treasure needs to be an option as well, that either means Renown on the same scale as Treasure or an easy conversion between the two.

As for Standing, I think (baring special cases) it applies to the character's home culture. As the world gets bigger (thanks Rivendell!) it makes less sense that someone else cares that much what you did last summer in another part of the world.

[Rich H]

As for Standing, I think (baring special cases) it applies to the character's home culture. As the world gets bigger (thanks Rivendell!) it makes less sense that someone else cares that much what you did last summer in another part of the world.

... But by the same token Renown can relate to cultures other than the character's home culture - for instance, the man of Dale that aides the Elves of Rivendell in some venture would gain respect and renown with them. That's even acknowledged within the RAW so there's certainly the potential to increase the scope from just home cultures. The trick is how to apply it within the mechanics without it becoming too onerous. In my rules Renown increases are determined by the LM based on events within the campaign, so there's no storing/spending of a resource in order to increase it, this allows for it to be recorded separately for each culture so that those events aiding the Beornings goes towards the PCs Renown with that culture whether they belong to the culture or not.

[Rich H]

I've also added Doc's ideas for Deeds to my original Renown rules to show how these could work with them, as I know some people here are using those already:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/795 ... 0Rules.pdf

I think they fit pretty well (ie, the 2nd page of the above document, with some minor tweaks by me).

[Falenthal]

What I find a little odd is that a heroe can perform a great deed, gain Renown points, and decide not to spend them at all.
That would mean that the great deed (that maybe was hailed by everyone in town during the adventure) doesn't translate into a raise in the Standing of the heroe. The mechanics would contradict what was expected from the adventure itself and from common sense:

A group of Bard's Men Heroes defeat the Gibbet King in it's assault on Dale, but the players decide they'll keep their Renown points for next year. So no raise in Standing in Dale even after such heroic feat. Next year, they have some adventures in Woodmen-Town, away from home, and during their Fellowship Phase they spend enough Renown to raise their Standing one level in Dale. Odd.

After careful reading and thinking, I agree with Rich that raises in Standing due to Deeds (not Treasure) should be assigned automatically by the LM, not bought in any sense.

[Falenthal]

I've also added Doc's ideas for Deeds to my original Renown rules to show how these could work with them, as I know some people here are using those already:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/795 ... 0Rules.pdf

I think they fit pretty well (ie, the 2nd page of the above document, with some minor tweaks by me).

I've got a question: Why does the standing in other cultures fall slower than in you own? As per RAW, the Standing is lowered 1 level per year (if nothing is done to the contrary). In your rules, someone with a Standing of 3 doesn't see his level lowered until 3 years have passed. Any particular reason foreigners are less forgotten than natives?

Second question: What's your concept of "other cultures in the region"? Does it mean "every culture in Wilderland"? Or is it more local like "Woodmen achievements reach the Beornings ears, but not necessarily Erebor, Dale, Esgaroth or Thranduil's Halls"?

All in all, I think this are the rules I'll be using.

I have a final (i think ) side-question: How do you people manage Hobbits Standing? Or better said: do you consider The Shire as their hometown for Standing?
First of all, it's a little weird to have someone travel every year (or at least be able to) over the Misty Mountains and back. It kind of makes the travels rules suck. Why bother with Fatigue tests, Eye rolls and traveling roles, when a lonely Hobbit can teleport from Hobbiton to Lake-town every year?
And second, his Standing in Hobbiton would come into play very little to none. Maybe when arriving in Wilderland, Hobbits can freely choose a place to settle in and use it as his Hometown for Standing and Holdings purpouse? How have you played it so far?

[Rich H]

I've got a question: Why does the standing in other cultures fall slower than in you own? As per RAW, the Standing is lowered 1 level per year (if nothing is done to the contrary). In your rules, someone with a Standing of 3 doesn't see his level lowered until 3 years have passed. Any particular reason foreigners are less forgotten than natives?

I should've provided a caveat in the rules stating that the rules within it replace anything within the RAW that they contradict. As these are houserules I've altered the way Standing/Renown is lost within my campaign so what's in here replaces the RAW for me. If this doesn't suit you then simply ignore the offending paragraph. It is complicated for the LM to track though and has been something that I've been considering tweaking/removing. The last bullet point on the first page, first column could instead read:

• Such ratings can reduce over time in a character’s absence as they are forgotten by the people of the region in question. Renown is lost in other cultures at a rate of one point per year of absence, although if a character performs a Deed or visits upon a leader of the region then this reduction would not occur.

For example: Gilbrannon the Elf has a Renown rating of 4 with the Beornings. This rating will fall to 3 if he fails to spend a Fellowship Phase with them during the year or fails to perform a deed; even a Good Deed would suffice in this respect in order to maintain the Renown.

Second question: What's your concept of "other cultures in the region"? Does it mean "every culture in Wilderland"? Or is it more local like "Woodmen achievements reach the Beornings ears, but not necessarily Erebor, Dale, Esgaroth or Thranduil's Halls"?

For Legendary Deeds it's across the whole of Wilderland and may even go beyond, given a few years for the news to travel, although I haven't thought about mechanics for this; as the LM I'd just adjudicate what felt right.

All in all, I think this are the rules I'll be using.

It's what I've been using for my campaign and it's worked pretty well. Doc's notes on Deeds do a fantastic job of codifying what I have been hand-waiving so they will definitely help me. Like I said in the previous post, I added them to my current rules to illustrate for others how they could be used to maintain separate levels of Renown in all foreign cultures. There's a trade off though - they aren't stored as a 'Renown Point' resource so there could be an issue with how these rules interact with Treasure being spent to increase Standing at home; you can still increase Standing through spending treasure; it's just Renown Points + Treasure Points can't be combined to increase Standing from one level to the next. That's not a problem for me but it could be for others.

I have a final (i think ) side-question: How do you people manage Hobbits Standing? Or better said: do you consider The Shire as their hometown for Standing?

I don't have any hobbits in my campaign so I haven't had to think about this. It would depend on the kind of game I wanted to run before I'd make a decision on the above.

First of all, it's a little weird to have someone travel every year (or at least be able to) over the Misty Mountains and back. It kind of makes the travels rules suck. Why bother with Fatigue tests, Eye rolls and traveling roles, when a lonely Hobbit can teleport from Hobbiton to Lake-town every year?

Yeah, that thought has crossed my mind. To be fair though the rules about that do suggest that if the LM wants to roll for this using the Journey Rules then they can, it just wouldn't be the norm. I think I'd do that though, for making such a treacherous journey.

And second, his Standing in Hobbiton would come into play very little to none. Maybe when arriving in Wilderland, Hobbits can freely choose a place to settle in and use it as his Hometown for Standing and Holdings purpouse? How have you played it so far?

As I have no Hobbits in my campaign I haven't played it any way... I think the question to ask though is: even if the Hobbit wanted to adopt the place as his home would the locals accept him? Standing / Renown is more about how others perceive and accept you not the other way around so as much as the hobbit may love this 'home from home' others may not feel the same way towards him. ... Isn't that a reason to use some kind of Renown rules though?

[Falenthal]

Thanks for all the replies, Rich!

Regarding the first issue, yes, I think it's too much bookeeping to lower Standing over the years. You have to write down when the Standing was gained, calculate time passed for every player AND every culture,... Too much for me.
I think your solution of "-1 level per year if nothing signifiant is made to prevent it" it's fine with me.

As per the regions, I agree that it can depend on the deed performed. In DoM, the Werewolf attacked Woodmen and Elves alike. So, while the adventure to kill it originates in Woodmen-Town, I think that succesfully ending the beasts life should raise the heroes Standing among Woodmen and Elves alike. And maybe the Beornings won't even notice, as they had their own problems and were not affected by the Werewolves attacks.

And for the Hobbits, I agree that this Renown/standing that's applied to all cultures, not only to your hometown, can solve the problem I have with them. I don't know if spending treasure to raise any Standing should be ok, but that also depends on the particularities of the campaign and what the hobbit player wants to do with his character.