Runes of Victory and Called Shot

[mica]

Runes of Victory
Craftsmanship: Dwarven, Elven
Item: Any weapon
When you attack using a weapon possessing this Quality you
score an automatic hit on a Gandalf and also on an Sauron result.

From the Called Shot description

If the roll result doesn’t match or beat the attack Target
Number AND the player gets a Sauron icon on his Feat die,
the called shot attempt fails in a catastrophic way, called
a fumble.

As a Sauron is always a hit, it means that it is now impossible to fumble even if no Tengwars are rolled (though the attack is still treated as a miss).
As it does not state that the Sauron is treated as a Gandalf, I presume that this still triggers the called short for the enemy.

[Murcushio]

As a Sauron is always a hit, it means that it is now impossible to fumble even if no Tengwars are rolled (though the attack is still treated as a miss).

How do you figure?

The description in Called Shot makes no allowances at all for any other modifiers or effects that might be imposed by rolling a Sauron. You roll a Sauron and also don't hit the TN, you fumble. Why wouldn't that apply with the Runes of Victory?

[Hermes Serpent]

I've looked at the possibilities and the only case that's a problem is where your weapon has the Runes and you roll an Eye of Sauron.

Called Shot with Runes of Victory

Code: Select all

Feat Die         Total Meets TN 
10 or less            Hit with at least 1 Tengwar
Gandalf               Hit with at least 1 Tengwar
Sauron                Hit with at least 1 Tengwar
Sauron                Hit but no Called Shot effect and fumble

The Eye counts as zero in accordance with the normal rules for an Eye rolled by a Hero but generates an automatic hit under the rules for Runes of Victory. What it doesn't do under the rules for a Called Shot is have the Called Shot effect.

"A called shot hits only when the roll matches or beats the
Target Number set for the attack AND the player obtains
at least one Tengwar icon on his rolled Success dice.

If the roll result doesn't produce any tengwar icons, the attack
misses altogether (even if the total result matches or
beats the attack TN)."

So the Runes gives a hit but it does not meet the rules for a Called Shot making it a normal hit by eliminating the second paragraph under the description of Called Shot. Whether or not the LM adjudicates a fumble after, or as a result of, the successful hit is another matter.

[Murcushio]

Actually. Does a Called Shot count as an attack?

I mean, you are attacking something when you use it, yes. But does it formally count as an attack under the rules? Nomenclature can be important. As far as I recall, there are only two things you can do with your weapon; you can attack with it, or you can make a Called Shot with it; any other combat actions don't really involve your weapon, except inasmuch as you may have a Virtue that causes it to add to your Parry in some way. There's kinda-sorta a third action that involves weapons, Prepare Shot, but that's in the nature of a buff rather than a distinct third thing you can do with your weapon; you still make a normal attack with it, it just gets an extra thing.

(Sidebar: Prepare Shot becomes super, crazy good with the Runes.)

So the question is, are attacks and Called Shots disjoint sets? Attacks are, clearly, not Called Shots, but are Called Shots attacks?

I can see the argument being made (or a ruling coming down from the devs) that if you chose to execute a Called Shot, you're not making a "basic" attack, and so the Runes don't count.

I think if I were running a table, that's the way I'd do it. From a pure balance perspective, the Runes just seem way to powerful if they turn a Sauron into an auto-hit on normal attacks AND completely immunize you against fumbles. That just seems way, way too powerful. Maybe it was intended, but in the case of ambiguity I'm going to go with what makes the most sense, which is that making you fumble-immune is a bridge too far.

[Hermes Serpent]

There's nothing to suggest that after rolling an Eye on a Called Shot then hero does not suffer from "the difficulty to hit him will be equal to his basic combat TN (he loses any bonuses from his attributes, Virtues or equipment)."

[Rich H]

I can see the argument being made (or a ruling coming down from the devs) that if you chose to execute a Called Shot, you're not making a "basic" attack, and so the Runes don't count.

I think if I were running a table, that's the way I'd do it.

That's the way I go too; Runes of Victory apply to normal attacks and not Called Shots which are a different type of action. I don't think that's too much of a stretch as the rules state that a failed Called Shot doesn't default to an attack (assuming it achieved the applicable TN) so they are two different things.

[mica]

While I agree in spirit with both Murcushio & Rich, a called shot does appear to be classed as an attack:

A fighting character who is feeling very confident – or desperate – may announce that he is trying a ‘called shot’ before rolling his attack dice. When a called shot hits home, a special attack result occurs, depending on the
weapon used to attack (see the table below).The roll for a called shot is resolved normally, with the following differences:

It most definitely does not call it a skill check and as such a sauron result with no tengwars ends up as a hit converted to a miss.

If however the adjudication is such that it does not negate fumbles as a called shot is not an attack, then by extension, rolling a sauron and a tengwar (and getting the TN) also does not result in piercing blow (when using sword or axe) though does smash shields and disarms (though still gives a piercing blow with a spear or bow).

Does that sound reasonable?

edit - actually does not end up with a piercing even under normal circumstances as it only treats Sauron as a hit, not a Gandalf. The only thing debate therefore is if Runes make Called Shots fumble immune and turn called shot misses with a Tengwar due to not getting the TN into hits.

[Glorelendil]

I don't agree with not allowing Runes of Victory to apply to Called Shots; I think it's nitpicking the language to differentiate between basic attacks and special attacks. I don't see a problem with allowing the Called Shot to succeed and also applying the Fumble rule. Yeah, you were so focused on your shot that you didn't see that tree root. Good thing you had an enchanted bow or that shot would have missed when you stumbled.

[Rich H]

It most definitely does not call it a skill check and as such a sauron result with no tengwars ends up as a hit converted to a miss.

Not quite. If a Called Shot results in no tengwars and a Sauron then it doesn't convert a hit to a miss. The lack of tengwars already made the Called Shot a miss, the addition of the Sauron makes it a fumble. On a Called Shot it's the tengwars that determine success (assuming the total beats the TN), anything less is a miss.

[Rich H]

I don't see a problem with allowing the Called Shot to succeed and also applying the Fumble rule.

Erm, that's not correct. As per the RAW if you roll a Sauron but get enough tengwars then no fumble occurs - the Called Shot is a success. A fumble only occurs on a failed Called Shot (ie, not enough tengwars) and you also roll a Sauron.