Generalized combat effects.

[JoeArcher]

With exploding dice (0, 0, 0, 4, 5, 6) the chances are as follows (on top of those percentages you can add advantage dice, hope and any other bonuses you might get)

Skill 1
TN, chance (RAW) {1-3 counting as 1's with exploding dice} [1-3 counting as 0, 0, 1 - exploding dice]
14, 20.4% (16.7%) {21.2%} [20.6%]
15, 16.3% (12.5%)
16, 13.7% (9.7%)
17, 12.3% (8.3%)
18, 11.7% (8.3%)
19, 11% (8.3%)
20, 10.3% (8.3%) {10.4%} [10.3%]

Skill 2
TN
14, 36.9% (41.9%) {42.4%} [38.7%]
15, 31.3% (34.3%)
16, 27.0% (27.3%)
17, 23.9% (21.3%)
18, 21.3% (16.4%)
19, 18.7% (13%)
20, 16.3% (10.7%) {17.7%} [16.8%]

Skill 3
TN
14, 53.5% (69.5%) {63%} [56.7%]
15, 47.8% (62%)
16, 42.8% (54.2%)
17, 38.5% (46.4%)
18, 34.5% (38.9%)
19, 30.5% (31.9%)
20, 26.8% (25.7%) {31.9%} [28.5%]

Skill 4
TN
14, 67.4% (88.6%) {79.7%} [71.4%]
15, 62.5% (83.9%)
16, 57.7% (78.4%)
17, 53.1% (72.1%)
18, 48.7% (65.2%)
19, 44.1% (57.9%)
20, 39.7% (50.5%) {49.8%} [42.9%]

Skill 5
TN
14, 78.1% (96.9%) {89.9%} [82.2%]
15, 74.1% (95.1%)
16, 70.0% (92.5%)
17, 65.9% (89.2%)
18, 61.7% (85.1%)
19, 57.3% (80.1%)
20, 52.9% (74.3%) {66.4%} [57.3%]

Skill 6
TN
14, 85.8% (99.4%) {95.5%} [89.3%]
15, 82.8% (98.9%)
16, 79.5% (98.1%)
17, 76.1% (96.9%)
18, 72.6% (95.2%)
19, 68.7% (92.8%)
20, 64.8% (89.9%) {79.8%} [69.8%]

Skill level 6 as per RAW is simply just broken in my eyes... the chances dropping only 9.5% from TN 14 to TN 20. If you look at the numbers with the exploding dice and 1-3 counting zero, then you see how low skill level has better chances, while TN 20 remains a decent upgrade even at skill 6 (chance of success dropping 21%). This could be tweaked further to increase the overall chance of success to be slightly higher if you set the ourlines dice as all counting as 1's, but the exploding dice will in this case, make the TN less effective in increasing the difficulty.

Combined with my defence rule, that allows you to allocate dice for defence (each die is used up by one attack), it makes defensive stance preferable when facing multiple opponents as the TN12 counts against all enemies where each die only count against one attack. This means the PC facing the three uruks, might start in defensive and try to dispose of one uruk, bu spending a point of hope and, then when one uruk is dead, change to open or forward stance. The change in his chance of hitting would be from 57% to 82% (TN 19 to TN 13), whereas in RAW it would be from 80.1% to 98.2%. Plus facing less opponents he could more effectively use defense dice. It just gives some more tactical options and the stances remain viable.

I also added another calculation for the outlined numbers where only 1's count and 2 and 3 are zero [inside brackets ]. That gives a nice almost 90% chance for TN 14 at skill 6 which I find to be a decent number, so they will fail 1 in 10. And the scaling of TN's is still nice with a decreased chance of success of 19.5% from TN 14 to TN 20. Perhaps a good middle ground.

[Rich H]

... I don't think it's very clear what combination of rules you're proposing for the results you're quoting. I'm finding it difficult to follow so can't comment. Some of your suggested rules would turn me off as a player as they seem overly complicated and perhaps you should look at adopting another system/dice mechanic that already works for your needs rather than trying to bend TOR to fit?

I'm not sure, but you don't appear to have played the game a lot (if at all) and you're proposing changes and stating it is 'broken' when you don't understand, or are aware of, the designer's intent. Apologies if you are, and have actually been in discussion with Francesco. I'd always caution against massive changes to a system you haven't used in anger - for instance, you assert that you want Hope to be used by PCs as their characters increase in skill but it's a design conceit in TOR that Hope is a dwindling resource and is used for starting characters and to boost low value skills but is not called upon as regularly by experienced, or high skill, characters. That's why high level skills have the success probability they have - they make up for the lack of Hope as a resource when your characters get to such levels of competency.

[JoeArcher]

I see your point rich, but you don't think it's a problem that at skill level 6 the difference between TN 14 and 20 is only 9.5%? From skill 4 the players have almost 90% chance of success at the default TN of 14 (and that's only one raise from the starting skills in which they have 3). Perhaps it's just me, but I think it gets a bit dull generally as a player too, when the risk of failure disappears. Especially for the cool stuff like travel. Also remember that advantages, rerolls and other bonuses are added to these chances.

I also don't like the fact that the chance of success almost tripples from skill 1 to 2. From skill 3-4 the chance of rolling 20 doubles. I just don't like how the chance of success evolves as you gain skill with RAW.

I know the intention of hope may be what you propose. I just guess I like to keep hope in the game a bit longer, although the statement is true with my system too, that beginning characters will need it a lot more... it just never becomes completely obsolete.

In the above calculations there were no weird rules involved Just the following options for the dice

Exploding dice is where you reroll 6's and add the result, without getting further tengwars.
The very first number is the TN
The first percentage was with 1-3 counting as zero and exploding dice
(The next number was RAW)
{The third number was 1-3 counting as 1's}
[The last number was 1-3 counting as 1,0,0}

The defesive rule I mentioned is a rule where you may save one or more of your attack dice, and them use them to add the result to your parry against one attack (whereas the +6 from defensive stance compared to forward stance counts against all attacks).

[Glorelendil]

I see your point rich, but you don't think it's a problem that at skill level 6 the difference between TN 14 and 20 is only 9.5%? From skill 4 the players have almost 90% chance of success at the default TN of 14 (and that's only one raise from the starting skills in which they have 3). Perhaps it's just me, but I think it gets a bit dull generally as a player too, when the risk of failure disappears.

The "risk of failure" is getting an ass-whuppin' from a snow troll, regardless of the number of times you hit him. The maximum damage you can do in one shot at skill 6 is exactly the same as at skill 2, and so is the chance of getting a wound (which, if we're talking about snow trolls, is really really low.) The only thing that scales is the frequency with which you hit him. Effectively turning misses into rare events at high level doesn't affect game balance at all (again, any more than it does in WoW).

I really think you should create some high powered characters and do some mock battles against high attribute level opponents, and tell us if you think the fights are too easy. Don't forget to spend Hate like crazy, and add attribute level to every favoured roll.

[Rich H]

I see your point rich, but you don't think it's a problem that at skill level 6 the difference between TN 14 and 20 is only 9.5%? From skill 4 the players have almost 90% chance of success at the default TN of 14. Perhaps it's just me, but I think it gets a bit dull generally as a player too, when the risk of failure disappears. Especially for the cool stuff like travel.

I also don't like the fact that the chance of success almost tripples from skill 1 to 2. From skill 3-4 the chance of rolling 20 doubles. I just don't like how the chance of success evolves as you gain skill with RAW.

There's a very deliberate design intent in TOR to, for want of a better expression, mechanically reward people generalising skills and working towards a broad base of skills with rating 3 or 4. This is backed up by what you've put above. You may prefer something else but the game's design is deliberate in that intent. You're fine not liking that and wanting to alter it but it doesn't make the rules broken - more accurately the way you're engaging with the game isn't as intended and you want something different from it. I'm not saying your flat out wrong, just that we all need to consider what the game system is trying to promote as a style and way of engaging with the game universe before we look to make changes.

I know the intention of hope may be what you propose. I just guess I like to keep hope in the game a bit longer, although the statement is true with my system too, that beginning characters will need it a lot more... it just never becomes completely obsolete.

Hope doesn't become obsolete in the RAW but by the time characters are more experienced then their Hope reserves should be diminished and they only need to use it in specific cases to help them along unlike starting characters that use it far more frequently.

In the above calculations there were no weird rules involved Just the following options for the dice

Exploding dice is where you reroll 6's and add the result, without getting further tengwars.
The very first number is the TN
The first percentage was with 1-3 counting as zero and exploding dice
(The next number was RAW)
{The third number was 1-3 counting as 1's}
[The last number was 1-3 counting as 1,0,0}

The defesive rule I mentioned is a rule where you may save one or more of your attack dice, and them use them to add the result to your parry against one attack (whereas the +6 from defensive stance compared to forward stance counts against all attacks).

Okay, thanks for the clarification. Personally, those would be too much to take as a basic dice mechanic so I'd struggle to engage with such a system or would be asking the question of the designer of it "isn't there a more elegant and simplified option"?

[Rich H]

The maximum damage you can do in one shot at skill 6 is exactly the same as at skill 2.

... Don't forget that those 't' results increase damage and the chances of rolling them increase with skill rating!

[JoeArcher]

Cheers for the feedback both of you. When we get around to playing TOR I'll play by the rules as written and see how it is. My group and I have just struggled with several systems where missing never happened as the PC's became experienced and it caused some frustration.

To us it just seems weird that two inexperienced fighters that are evenly matched hit each other very rarely, wheras two experienced fighters hit each other all the time, although they are evenly matched.

Has it never created problems for you when playing, that endurance drops very fast when getting hit. I've seen some house rules trying to mitigate this by letting armor soak endurance loss, but for me this goes very much against the beauty that is the encumbrance-endurance balance of TOR, which is a mechanic I'd like to keep in play even at higher skill levels. But I can see why the rule makes sense as armor needs to be viable as the frequency of hits goes up and players without armor are killed left and right by wounds. I just don't see the problem as a problem with armor encumbrance, but rather the lack of proper defence as skill goes up.

[zedturtle]

I've been trying to stay out of this thread, but I feel compelled to contribute... At this point, the best you're going to be able to tell your players is "Here's a homebrew game system, inspired by The One Ring and tweaked by me into what I think you will like for WFRP." There's nothing wrong with that, per se, but it makes it hard to analysis your proposals when everything is in motion. I see a lot of eigentesting, but very little (if any) playtesting.

1. The system does have an intentionally diffuse progression scheme. Skill 1 is marginally better than being unskilled, Skill 2 is ok, Skill 3 is good, Skill 4 is great. Skills 5 & 6 are XP pits, there are more interesting things to spend XP on at that point... magic items, unlocking advanced abilities in virtues, plus a plethora of house rules suggestions (e.g. spending XP as TP in order to increase Standing). As Rich pointed out, having diminishing returns above skill 4 makes characters more likely to diversify, which makes them more interesting.

2. I don't see where you've really addressed Elf's points about the damage and adversary system. For a normal attack, rolling more dice does not increase the chance of a Wound. It does increase the chances of doing Great or Extraordinary damage, but with opponents with abilities like Great Size and Hideous Toughness that will only go so far. Switching over to Called Shots (as you must do at some point when fighting a Great Size adversary) totally changes the dice mechanic... now the only thing that matters is the 6s. I recently ran a combat with 8 PCs versus one Great Size adversary. They took it down in three rounds, but it knocked out (and nearly killed) a PC in each round of combat.

3. I'm glad you're interested in the Hope economy; it's one of the things that make TOR great. Coming from other systems that use other forms of benny points, lots of folks get upset about the dwindling Hope. It never totally goes away however, and you can use Hope to activate magical items and special abilities... requiring it for combats once a character has obtained magic items and acquired those special abilities means that you're making it harder for them to spend Hope on the things that they should be spending it on, because they still need it to survive relatively mundane fights regardless of their extreme (and hard-won) skill.

As Rich indicated above, this is your thing and you can't be wrong, because whatever makes you happy is cool. But I hope you consider what we've written and try some fights out... you might be surprised.

[JoeArcher]

Cheers Zed... I don't want to be right, if I'm not

What I mean by this is that I very much appreciate this feedback. We don't have time to playtest a lot before using the system for wfrp, so I just want to try my best at something I think may be to our liking. After we have actually played with the conversion rules, I'll most likely need to re-ealuate a lot (as some of the posts in this thread has made me do). I'll be using the monsters as presented in the TOR rules to represent wfrp monsters, so that will be tested.

I will however follow your suggestion and invite some friends over for some TOR combat with rules as written.

Your point about called shots is good. That changes the mechanics quite a bit!

ad 2. Sounds like an awesome fight. I'll try such a fight and a variety of others with the PC's outnumbered and outnumbering the enemy.

ad 3. I can understand how this can be an issue, if hope are to become less and less, because players still neet it for new abilities.

[Glorelendil]

The maximum damage you can do in one shot at skill 6 is exactly the same as at skill 2.

... Don't forget that those 't' results increase damage and the chances of rolling them increase with skill rating!

I haven't. Both are true: the chance of getting an Extraordinary Success increases, but the damage it produces never changes.