Cursing, Swearing and exclamations in Middle Earth

[Glorelendil]

Hit them hard as Helm's fists!

"Helm's Deep" has all sorts of possibilities.

"By Helm's Deep Arse!"

alternately,

"Argh, that troll nearly tore me in half. I feel like Helm's Wife." or "Helm's Wife that hurt!"

[Stormcrow]

Even the orcs don't go much beyond calling people "maggot"

Actually they curse quite a bit more than that, but the narrator says that he's only giving the less horrific parts of their speech. Orcs clearly curse constantly, as vile as they can, and with great relish. Actually presenting this, whether in a novel or a game, is a bad idea.

[Glorelendil]

Even the orcs don't go much beyond calling people "maggot"

Actually they curse quite a bit more than that, but the narrator says that he's only giving the less horrific parts of their speech. Orcs clearly curse constantly, as vile as they can, and with great relish. Actually presenting this, whether in a novel or a game, is a bad idea.

I was thinking about this general question, of whether the absence of foul language in Tolkien's portrayal means they didn't swear. My sense is that it's unrealistic to think that people didn't swear, but Tolkien was writing in a style that doesn't include such base things. I'm sure the Knights of the Round Table swore like sailors, as fighting men are wont to do, but that doesn't fit with the genre of idealized (if flawed) heroes, so it's not included. Same with the Iliad and the Odyssey, Beowulf, Song of Roland, Robin Hood stories, etc..

So that raises the question of whether the game exists in the same sort of "history through a lens" as the fiction does. If so...if you want your game to feel like the stories...then swearing (and latrines, brothels, etc.) probably aren't a fit.

P.S. And despite my off-color contributions to this thread, I'm actually not a fan of including them in the game. I like the idealized lens of the Professor. But I also think the question poses an interesting literary/intellectual puzzle. What would the swearing be like in a culture that shared none of our history or religion?

[Arthadan]

Well, I speak three languages and can curse in five

When it comes to that, there are some universal things like calling bad names the mother of the person you want to offend (Tolkien did it in his way with Thorin's "descendant of rats").

However, if you want to preserve the tone of the book in your games, keep swearing and cursing to a minimum and only as a way to reflect the low moral quality of some NPC. An Angmarim can insult the PCs, a mercenary can swear, but a noble knight of Dol Amroth or a heroe cannot (even if it would be more realistic).

And of course tone down everything or it would feel like Game of Thrones instead of Middle-earth!

[zedturtle]

Even the orcs don't go much beyond calling people "maggot"

Actually they curse quite a bit more than that, but the narrator says that he's only giving the less horrific parts of their speech. Orcs clearly curse constantly, as vile as they can, and with great relish. Actually presenting this, whether in a novel or a game, is a bad idea.

I was thinking about this general question, of whether the absence of foul language in Tolkien's portrayal means they didn't swear. My sense is that it's unrealistic to think that people didn't swear, but Tolkien was writing in a style that doesn't include such base things. I'm sure the Knights of the Round Table swore like sailors, as fighting men are wont to do, but that doesn't fit with the genre of idealized (if flawed) heroes, so it's not included. Same with the Iliad and the Odyssey, Beowulf, Song of Roland, Robin Hood stories, etc..

So that raises the question of whether the game exists in the same sort of "history through a lens" as the fiction does. If so...if you want your game to feel like the stories...then swearing (and latrines, brothels, etc.) probably aren't a fit.

P.S. And despite my off-color contributions to this thread, I'm actually not a fan of including them in the game. I like the idealized lens of the Professor. But I also think the question poses an interesting literary/intellectual puzzle. What would the swearing be like in a culture that shared none of our history or religion?

[[ Urgh! I wrote a draft of this, but it didn't keep for some reason... ]]

I am definitely of the opinion that the game session is a "retelling" of the action in the game world, not a literal re-enactment. That means that the actual heroes were more knowledgable, more focused and more adept in speaking in the appropriate manner to those they meet. That means that having a great speech flubbed by a poor die roll doesn't bother me so much, but it also means that I'm not much for foul language or off-colour remarks or subject matter in my games.

In the big game, the heroes have spent quite a bit of time in Dale. I drew some inspiration from Corvo's game descriptions, but a lot of stuff has come from Rich's Guide to Dale. BUT, the bordellos and bath-houses have disappeared, just not fitting into the type of story we are telling. I don't doubt that such things exist in Dale; but they don't fit into our retelling and are thus "off the map" (figuratively and literally).

[Hélend]

So perhaps we should go the way of the good professor and merely say something like "my character makes several uncomplimentary references to the guard's parentage," rather than acting it out.
Really, I can't see Aragorn ever using profanity, or elves for that matter. If they want to insult you they do it with style and panache, not vulgarity, like Feanor's comment to Maedhros about leaving behind Fingolfin and his people: "What I have left behind I count now no loss; needless baggage on the road it has proved. Let those that cursed my name, curse me still, and whine their way back to the cages of the Valar. Let the ships burn!"

[Rich H]

I drew some inspiration from Corvo's game descriptions, but a lot of stuff has come from Rich's Guide to Dale. BUT, the bordellos and bath-houses have disappeared, just not fitting into the type of story we are telling. I don't doubt that such things exist in Dale; but they don't fit into our retelling and are thus "off the map" (figuratively and literally).

As long as the Plump Duck and Heston Butterchurn made the cut I'm happy!

As a side note, the seedier parts of Dale were largely ripped off the old MERP Tharbad supplement but I think things like it often help just to build up verisimilitude when a Loremaster is reading up on a place rather than to actually be used within a game session.

[Glorelendil]

So perhaps we should go the way of the good professor and merely say something like "my character makes several uncomplimentary references to the guard's parentage," rather than acting it out.
Really, I can't see Aragorn ever using profanity, or elves for that matter. If they want to insult you they do it with style and panache, not vulgarity, like Feanor's comment to Maedhros about leaving behind Fingolfin and his people: "What I have left behind I count now no loss; needless baggage on the road it has proved. Let those that cursed my name, curse me still, and whine their way back to the cages of the Valar. Let the ships burn!"

I think this is a fine way to go, especially for heroes, but LMs may want to use some colorful curses or vulgarity for their NPCs and Adversaries, as a way of illustrating what sort of people they are. Nothing says "low class" like a reference to Elbereth's anatomy.

[shipwreck]

"Well, we're off like Beren's hand." (Not exactly a swear.)

I've heard a popular idiom amongst the Dunedain was, "Let's make like Beren's hand and get bit off by a giant werewolf."

[Glorelendil]

Make like Lorien and leave.