TfW Spoilers - An Origin Story for GK?

[Glorelendil]

Oh I assumed you were specifically instructing aeglosdir, too.

/wink

[zedturtle]

Oh I assumed you were specifically instructing aeglosdir, too.

/wink

(Ignoring the wink for a moment)

I'm not trying to instruct anyone per se. It's just that sometimes when folks are talking about something they're familiar with, it can be easy to forget that our words can be somebody's first impression/introduction of a subject. I'm very interested in the discussion, and I do think a Houseless elf could be a fascinating scenario (or maybe even an explanation for the GK). I just like to expand possibilities and not shut down things unnecessarily*.

-----

* EC: This does not mean you get your empowered fireball or even a never-been-to-a-motivation-seminar fireball.

[Aeglosdir]

I think obsolete is too strong a word, considering Irving called Ichabod Crane a wight. And Tolkien was intentionally reaching out for archaic words, always trying to use words with Old English roots instead of Latin ones if possible.

It may be that I misrepresented Gilliver et al -- they are making a distinction between the 'living being (in general)' sense and the 'person' sense:

Until the 19th century the word wight was used in regional dialect with the meaning 'person'. [...] This sense has also survived in archaic literary contexts, as for example in the poetry of Thomas Hardy. The root meaning of the word is 'a living being, a creature' [...], a sense obsolete after the 16th century. [...] Another early use of wight, which has survived till recent times, was to denote supernatural beings in general, or in particular a ghost or demon. In the 10th-century gloss to the Lindisfarne Gospels (quoted in the OED), the disciples think Christ, walking on the water, is (in Latin) a phantasma, in Old English yfel wiht (evil wight) [...] William Morris, in The Wood Beyond the World (1894), writes of 'our protections against uncouth wights'.
Tolkien, of course, uses the word in this sense for a baleful phantom creature...'

[Glorelendil]

The etymology of Wight seems to come up every few months, doesn't it?

[Rich H]

The etymology of Wight seems to come up every few months, doesn't it?

Looks like we're only Turning it rather than Destroying.

[Aeglosdir]

Yeah, maybe some supplemental rules, now, for a change. Or MERP brothels. That's interesting.

[Rich H]

Heh, heh.

... Well, rules supplements have many wide and varied subjects (mostly) and brothels can always do with a regular visit. Just remember to wash your willy after; will leave you to decide whether that relates to rules supplements or brothels.

[Hermes Serpent]

Actually Rich H, I've found that the better quality brothels tend to require that you wash your equipment before partaking of the goods on offer.

[Rich H]

Actually Rich H, I've found that the better quality brothels tend to require that you wash your equipment before partaking of the goods on offer.

... Brothel? I was talking about the Rules Supplements.

[Will let that sink in and leave you with that image].

[Arthadan]

As for Isilidur having the power to curse the men of Dunharrow, I think it is of two parts: the oath that they broke is as important (and maybe more important) than Isilidur's cursing of them for breaking it. Oaths are powerful stuff:

They swore an oath which none shall break, and none should take, by the name even of Ilúvatar, calling the Everlasting Dark upon them if they kept it not ..... For so sworn, good or evil, an oath may not be broken, and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.

Seems to indicate that oaths can break the "natural cycle" of the world.

This is a great quote! But then who among the Mannish peoples knew the name of Ilúvatar? Only the Dúnedain and those who were close to them. Moreover, such a solemn oath requires an epic goal (only one comparable to the Oathbreakers' or even worse is the Oath of Fëanor). So it looks like we do not need a king, but a people knowing the existence and name of Ilúvatar so they can invoke his name and a reason great, epic and strong to risk damnation until the world's end. Great finding Zedturtle!

So Arthadan, if not a Mannish ghost (or wraith), what do you recommend, that would still fit with Professor Tolkien's views of Middle-earth (as you understand them)?

For evil spirits linked to a death body, be it barrow-wights or corpse candles, or for those which appear to be more corporeal and "alive" to some extend like Mewlips, I'd go for Houseless Elven spirit for the less powerful and lesser evil Maiar who have lost the power to build bodies for themselves over the Ages for the greater ones. Wraiths always come from Men (Hobbits belong to the race of Men), presumably created by a Morgul blade (it's worth noting only the Witch-king uses then, they seem to be rare and the victim may die, also the victim must have some special interest for Sauron to deserve such special treatment). And then we have oathbreaker Men ghosts, already discussed.

Then we have Sorcery illusions which may look like ghosts (Gorlim's wife, man of Carn Dûm Merry saw) which are just illusions used to instigate fear or trying to corrupt someone.

And finally, following TOR spirit, we have "puppet" undead which are not animated by spirits but moved by Sorcery. However, I'd make these poor fighters and animated only while the Sorcerer is near them, focusing on "casting" the spell (after all we have no record of such thing like an undead army in Middle-earth). They would be used to bring despair and as cannon fodder rather than real warriors.

Also, it's worth of mention the case of a Houseless Elven spirit possesing a living body (probably Mannish since their spirits are weaker than the Elvish ones and they are easily corrupted). What would be the result? Something like a Mewlip? A "normal" evil person?

Now some interesting articles for those of you who wantto delve deeper:

Other Minds #1: Of Barrow-wights by Neville Percy
Other Minds #3: Of Barrow-wights – Part Two by Neville Percy
Other Minds #7:The Other Side by yours truly
Saddly incomplete Necromancy Supplement by yours truly and others: Link (grab it while you can, I don't know how much longer the link will be working). Please note this is an old work and I have changed my mind about some things over the years.