revised skill test, raising TN, but add attribute....

[AULENDIL]

Hello,
i've been playing in middle earth from the very beginning of my RP life. (i'm 41 year-old, I used to play MERP-rolemaster from ICE, then the Lord of the Rings from Decipher.
even though i was really fond of the ICE modules, i was always disappointed by the rules, that could not really respect the spirit.
i'm really glad to use TOR, as it really respects the spirit of the books, it reminds me TIERS AGE (Third age), a french non professionnal RPG, written in 2000,known by some aficionados, with a system, and especially "magic" and "eye of Sauron" system that i could never find elsewhere, until, in some aspects, now with TOR.
well..... TIERS AGE is a dead game, and i play TOR now.

after a few scenarios, the system is doing very well, but i'm still surprised by some details:
I find the basic skill test very difficult, even if you a have 3 ranks. and usually at the beginning you have only 1 or 2 ranks......
the more you do things, the more you roll (except for very basic actions), and the more you will miss, as hope is not infinite, and recovers very slowly.
For skills, i'm a little annoyed by the fact that except with the expense of hope, you don't use your attributes.

i made a change in my group for common skill tests:
i raised average TN from 14 to 18, and i always add attribute (favored if favored skill).
at the expense of hope, you can add again attribute.

explanation:
-1°with attribute+ skill, test skill relies both on skill knowledge and "characteristic", which seems to me more realistic.
a newbie hero will often rely on his attributes and a little on skill.
the more the hero will be experienced, the more he will rely on skill to have success in difficult skills, or he will use hope.

-2° chances of success usually sightly increase:
the +4 TN raise in counterbalanced by the addition of attribute, and usually, heroes will a have 4 or 5, ( more in favored attributes). a PC with attribute of 2 (less than average), using a non favored skill, will find the test a little more difficult. But a good attribute of 6 or 7, in favoured skill, will have better chances than normally:
exemple:

-3° favored skills will have slightly better chance of success, without having the necessity of spending hope, which must still be used cautiously. In the actual system, there is no difference if you don't use hope for a favored skill test, compared to a non favored skill test.

what do you think of this modification?
does anyone have a file with success chances according to TN, and skill dices? i would like to choose more precisely the good TN. 18 seems Ok but i wnt to be sure.

thanks for your comments.

[zedturtle]

Well first off, here's an output from a Monte Carlo simulation so that you know what you're working with:

Code: Select all

DICE       TN 10    TN 12    TN 14    TN 16    TN 18    TN 20
0          16.66%   08.32%   08.31%   08.32%   08.33%   08.32% 
1          45.81%   29.17%   16.65%   09.72%   08.34%   08.31% 
2          74.11%   58.29%   41.89%   27.31%   16.44%   10.64% 
3          92.02%   82.61%   69.47%   54.15%   38.85%   25.7% 
4          98.38%   95.05%   88.57%   78.38%   65.17%   50.44% 
5          99.77%   99.01%   96.93%   92.54%   85.03%   74.32% 
6          99.97%   99.85%   99.39%   98.09%   95.16%   89.79% 

As you can see from above, a skill of 2 gives you about a 42% chance of success, a skill 3 gives you about 70% and skill 4 gives you about 89%. You get diminishing returns above that skill level.

But, while I do understand your point about favoured skills not often affect the results, I think that you want to spend some more time with the rules as written. They are written to require occasional Hope usage (especially for new characters) and so that players will engage with the Trait system to get automatic successes when they face an important challenge to a skill that they are weak on.

Also, consistently adding the attribute bonus weakens the Weary mechanic. Players will be much less concerned about becoming Weary if they are facing a 20-25% cut in effectiveness as opposed to a 40-50% cut.

[jamesrbrown]

If you make a search of the forum, I think someone did create a stat table for chances of success (I see that zed posted while I was writing). Of course, all of that would change with your modifications because now they would always be adding a static bonus for an Attribute score as well (or double if they spend Hope).

Personally, I have never found the default TN 14 test to be too difficult for 2-3 ranks of skill, definitely not 4 ranks. I like the spending of Hope to add an Attribute score. I think it brings flavour to the game. Don't forget, there is also a Fellowship pool to draw from.

Additionally, using Traits for an automatic action is also encouraged and helps with success rate.

Moreover, every Common skill roll has a 1/12 chance of rolling a Gandalf, which is an automatic success.

To address your reason for modifying the rules due to inexperienced adventurers relying more on Attributes and less on skill: well, actually the system already addresses that in a Tolkienesque way: It ties Attributes to Hope. A player-hero with low skill ranks is going to rely more on Attributes/Hope (he's going to need to spend Hope points more often), while a player-hero with higher Skill ranks will spend Hope less often. So, I don't think you need to change anything on account of this.

[Rocmistro]

Aulendil:

Welcome to the forums.

I would add that I don't think your changes are necessary, and I think you'll find that if you play the game as written and as intended (that includes using traits for auto-successes), and closely monitoring your heroes' hope expenditures/hope replenishment via the Fellowship Pool AND via their Fellowship Focus, that they (and you) will find the game satisfying and manageable, if not, I daresay, a little easy.

I thought the same as you, at first, regarding what I felt was the lack of participation of primary attributes in the rules systems. I have since changed my mind on the topic. That being said, I think your suggested change is...not bad, though I would have to take a more in-depth look at it. Zed, I don't think Weary will change too much if we assume an average stat value of 4.7 Aulendil's proposed change basically lowers the average TN from 14 to 13.3 A single bounced die from weary will still blow the check. Of course for "good" attributes (those 6 or higher) weary becomes less important, and for poor attributes (those under 4), weary becomes worse. But in full disclosure I'm not a maths-star. What if, in adopting this system, Hope allowed you to add your Wisdom or Valour bonus instead of an attribute bonus?

EDIT: In continue to think about this, I realized it gives a decisive advantage to Rangers and High Elves, who have an average Attribute of 5.7. Aulendil, I think your proposed system would unfairly advantage those 2 cultures.

[Hélend]

What do Hope points do under your altered system? Since you're already adding the attribute rating to every test their regular use would seem obsolete.

I produced my own Odds analysis spreadsheet and found that Skill 2 gives you a 41.9% success rate vs. TN 14. Skill 3 gives 69.48%. Hope points usually make them much easier. With Attribute 6 and a Hope point you'll have 87.04% at Skill 2 and 97.3% success rate at Skill 3. Your chances of a Great or Extraordinary success are close to doubled for a Skill 2 character as well. Inexperienced characters are supposed to rely on Hope points to succeed at important tasks.

[Rocmistro]

In his system, spending Hope adds the attribute value again, Helend.

[Hélend]

Ah yes, I see I missed that.
Well, you're not quite correct, Aulendil, that Hope points are the only way your attributes can affect the system. They also are important in combat, both in how hard it is to hit you and how hard you hit others, and they also effect secondary characteristics like Endurance and how much Hope you have to start with.

I've only run a few sessions so far, but I think my players have had no problem at all with accomplishing the important things. Part of the adjustment to this system (our group plays d20 systems most often) has been calling for rolls less often than we would have in a d20 game, and making each roll important. If we were rolling as often as we do in d20 games then yes, the player's Hope points would run out rather quickly and/or the players would get frustrated with how little they succeed.

[zedturtle]

Part of the adjustment to this system (our group plays d20 systems most often) has been calling for rolls less often than we would have in a d20 game, and making each roll important. If we were rolling as often as we do in d20 games then yes, the player's Hope points would run out rather quickly and/or the players would get frustrated with how little they succeed.

This is critical. Each task or test should represent a major accomplishment, with the outcome significant regardless of outcome (e.g. if the only thing that happens if the character fails is that they have to try again then there's no point in rolling.).

[Rich H]

Also, consistently adding the attribute bonus weakens the Weary mechanic. Players will be much less concerned about becoming Weary if they are facing a 20-25% cut in effectiveness as opposed to a 40-50% cut.

... I think this point that zedturtle makes is very important and shouldn't be overlooked. It's not just about TNs, if you add the attribute bonus to all rolls then you're also messing with other important elements of the game, the Weary state being one of them.

[Hélend]

Actually, being weary is only about a 10-20% cut in success rate at TN 14, not 40%:
TN 14: Skill 2: 41.9%; Skill 3: 69.48%; Skill 4: 88.57%
TN 14 Weary: Skill 2: 31.25%; Skill 3: 47.72%; Skill 4: 62.64%

Adjusting the basic difficulty to TN 18 but adding your attribute rating to each roll gives you the same general effect as lowering your TNs by your attribute-4. If you have a 4 attribute rating you'll end up right where you started as far as success rates go. Attribute 5 will give you the same effect as rolling against TN13, etc. Assuming an attribute of 5 your success rates will only change by around 10% in your favor. Weariness is not going to be too much further off. At higher attribute levels it will make a big difference, to a slightly lesser degree than spending Hope in the regular system makes a big difference if you have higher attribute levels.