evil men vs. Evil Men

[Tolwen]

Such a group would probably have to move north or west, into southern Eregion maybe. That could be a source for dunleding adventurers, settled in old elven territory.

An alternative would be the open areas of Enedwaith even though Eregion is not impossible for sure. I thought I had in mind that the Dunlanders were afraid of "elvish ghosts" there, though I can't find a Tolkien quote at the moment. It also might be a RPG extrapolation from MERP or LotRRPG.
The Dunlanders were however afraid of elvish folk in general and thus the connection with Eregion and its "elvishness" even after these many centuries may come from. Again, the position of the general population does not mean that a small group or individuals might do otherwise

EDIT: Quite to the contrary; if these guys would really go into the "cursed elvish land", that would contrast them all the more from the general dunnish population and make them somewhat special, but also outsiders in their contemporary society.

Cheers
Tolwen

[Glorelendil]

I can imagine a group of Dunledings not willing to accept Saruman's ideas. Of course, that would probably mean that they had a strong leader that could withstand the White Wizard's persuasive words.

Similar to, but the inverse of, how a certain someone from Tales from Wilderland picked a side different from the rest of his kin. I like it.

In some ways this discussion reminds me of the thread about whether any evil men from Angmar survived, or the thread about whether Mannish ghosts/spirits are possible. Just because you can interpret Tolkien's writings to exclude a narratively-rich possibility, why would you?

I love the idea of a small group of Dunlendings that broke from the main bunch, thanks to a charismatic leader, and are suffering for it but staying firm. What they need is a Hero or two to find a way to break Saruman's hold over their kin....

[Terisonen]

Dunlanders sound very to me like Scots Highlanders in Great Britain...

[Terisonen]

And a Really Evil Men sounds to me like a Men who as trodded in Black Magic, provided by Sauron or one of his minions.

[Corvo]

(...) We know from first-hand sources that Saruman was a master manipulator of wills and minds. He was able to dupe the Lord of the Nazgûl (...)

Cheers
Tolwen

Can I have some reference?
It's sooo interesting...

[Tolwen]

(...) We know from first-hand sources that Saruman was a master manipulator of wills and minds. He was able to dupe the Lord of the Nazgûl (...)

Can I have some reference?
It's sooo interesting...

Sure

Two days after Gandalf had departed from Orthanc, the Lord of Morgul halted before the Gate of Isengard. Then Saruman, already filled with wrath and fear by the escape of Gandalf, perceived the peril of standing between enemies, a known traitor to both. His dread was great, for his hope of deceiving Sauron, or at the least of receiving his favour in victory, was utterly lost. Now either he himself must gain the Ring or come to ruin and torment. But he was wary and cunning still, and he had ordered Isengard against just such an evil chance. The Circle of Isengard was too strong for even the Lord of Morgul and his company to assail without great force of war. Therefore to his challenge and demands he received only the answer of the voice of Saruman, that spoke by some art as though it came from the Gate itself.
"It is not a land that you look for," it said. "I know what you seek, though you do not name it. I have it not, as surely its servants perceive without telling; for if I had it, then you would bow before me and call me Lord. And if I knew where this thing was hid, I should not be here, but long gone before you take it. There is one only whom I guess to have this knowledge: Mithrandir, enemy of Sauron. And since it is but two days since he departed from Isengard, seek him nearby."
Such was still the power of the voice of Saruman that even the Lord of the Nazgûl did not question what it said, whether it was false or short of the full truth; but straightway he rode from the Gate and began to hunt for Gandalf in Rohan.

---Unfinishes Tales.IV The Hunt for the Ring (i)

Cheers
Tolwen

[tomfish]

I rather like the idea (and think it was Tolkien's intent) to add the terminology "Evil" not to tag a group of people intrinsically, but more to characterize their leaders. "Men who follow an Evil Leader" would be probably a more accurate, although impractical, terminology. The Men may have been deceived or forced to follow an Evil Leader, so they are not intrisically Evil, but calling them Evil Men is a convenient shortcut.

In my very personal view (and this is not fully supported by canon), I could even apply this thinking to Monsters like Orcs, Trolls, Spiders, etc. Before Sauron fully reveals his presence, they will act "evil" but mostly out of necessity or "natural" desire (hunt for food, lust, power, vengeance, etc.), so I would characterize them as agressive, brutal, inhuman, wicked, but this is only "minor evil" in the sense that they are not yet rallied towards the complete destruction of the Free People and mostly try to survie / develop much like other people do.

After Sauron is revealed (or to a lesser extent at other times, the Nazgul / Witch King) most of these creatures succomb to an Evil calling which channels their old hatreds and kindles desire for world domination and other race anihilation or domination. They then become powerful instruments, utterly controlled and lacking free-will, of the Enemy (Enemy of Freedom).

To support this view, there is one example in Heart of the Wild where we see Trolls "domesticated" by Men in Northern Anduin (not through force if I remember well). The Evil nature of the Trolls may not be fully awoken at that time, but after Sauron's revelation I suspect the Trolls will not be kept domesticated for long. Trade between Goblins and "neutral / formally serving Evil Leaders" Men like Hillmen or Dunlendings or Viglundings may be thinkable at some point in the Third Age, but after 2951 it would likely be more an affair of domination / fear / enslavement etc.

Maybe this way of thinking the nature of Evil could be easily challenged, but for me it is part of the "shades of grey" that are becoming more and more apparent in Tolkien's writing as I re-read them.

[Corvo]

(...)


Can I have some reference?
It's sooo interesting...

Sure

(...)The Circle of Isengard was too strong for even the Lord of Morgul and his company to assail without great force of war. Therefore to his challenge and demands he received only the answer of the voice of Saruman, that spoke by some art as though it came from the Gate itself.
"It is not a land that you look for," it said. "I know what you seek, though you do not name it. I have it not, as surely its servants perceive without telling; for if I had it, then you would bow before me and call me Lord. And if I knew where this thing was hid, I should not be here, but long gone before you take it. There is one only whom I guess to have this knowledge: Mithrandir, enemy of Sauron. And since it is but two days since he departed from Isengard, seek him nearby."
Such was still the power of the voice of Saruman that even the Lord of the Nazgûl did not question what it said, whether it was false or short of the full truth; but straightway he rode from the Gate and began to hunt for Gandalf in Rohan.

---Unfinishes Tales.IV The Hunt for the Ring (i)

Cheers
Tolwen

(snipped a bit to not clutter the page)

Thank you Tolwen!
...I'm eager to have Saruman in my DoM campaign

[Rich H]

"It is not a land that you look for," it said. "I know what you seek, though you do not name it. I have it not, as surely its servants perceive without telling; for if I had it, then you would bow before me and call me Lord. And if I knew where this thing was hid, I should not be here, but long gone before you take it. There is one only whom I guess to have this knowledge: Mithrandir, enemy of Sauron. And since it is but two days since he departed from Isengard, seek him nearby."

Cheers
Tolwen

(snipped a bit to not clutter the page)

Thank you Tolwen!
...I'm eager to have Saruman in my DoM campaign

And that quoted bit from Tolwen is played out wonderfully in the BBC radio play as well.

[zedturtle]

(...)


Can I have some reference?
It's sooo interesting...

Sure

(...)The Circle of Isengard was too strong for even the Lord of Morgul and his company to assail without great force of war. Therefore to his challenge and demands he received only the answer of the voice of Saruman, that spoke by some art as though it came from the Gate itself.
---Unfinished Tales.IV The Hunt for the Ring (i)

Cheers
Tolwen

...I'm eager to have Saruman in my DoM campaign

Be aware that there are several extant versions of how Saruman handled that situation; the above is but one possibility (but an awesome possibility).

The part I bolded is what I referenced when I spoke about having a 'magic mouth' type spell in my magic rules.