Aragorn

[bluejay]

Some nice write ups there Lathspell. Quick question, could you explain how Gimli is doing up to 12 Endurance to a second opponent using Cleaving? As far as I can see with a Valour of 6 he'd be doing 6 points.

[Deadmanwalking]

Some nice write ups there Lathspell. Quick question, could you explain how Gimli is doing up to 12 Endurance to a second opponent using Cleaving? As far as I can see with a Valour of 6 he'd be doing 6 points.

Old Hatred adds Valor again, or at least that's one interpretation. I'm not sure if it's the right one, rules-wise, but that's certainly the logic being used.

[bluejay]

Ah yes. I thought It just +3 but I re-read it now. Whether it can be added to this damage is absolutely open to interpretation and I would tend to say no.

[Angelalex242]

When you face your kin’s most hated enemies you feel the strength of your ancestors, slain by the foul hands of Orcs, flowing impetuously in your veins.
When you are fighting Orcs and their kind using hand- to-hand weapons, add a bonus of +3, or your Valour rating (whichever is higher), to the total Endurance loss inflicted by each of your blows.

That's pretty specifically a damage boost, doing 3 (or Valour) extra end on every hit.

Narsil being a 'sister' to Angrist certainly helps its case, as Angrist then becomes a weapon that works even on a Vala. Though it never actually cuts Morgoth himself, just his crown. Sauron actually lost a finger that day of the Last Alliance.

Makes me wonder how much help Aragorn could've been to Gandalf if he'd tried to slice the Balrog with Anduril. A weapon that can harm Sauron can harm Durin's Bane, which is only, at best, Sauron's equal. And more likely his inferior.

[Glorelendil]

Saruman (or his physical form in Middle Earth anyway) was killed by a common dagger. And he is Maia.

Unless somehow Grima got his hands on a 1st Age dagger.

And Gandalf was afraid of a bunch of orcs and wargs.

On the other hand, when Gandalf returned as the White he told Gimli and Legolas that neither of them had weapons that could harm him.

Sounds like a question for Other Minds to explore.

[bluejay]

Right but technically Cleaving isn't a hit, you just do damage. It's not subject to rules for chance of inflicting a piercing blow or anything else so I don't think that Old Hatred automatically applies. In most similar edge cases I've found that the rules tend not to stack bonuses like this.

[bluejay]

Saruman (or his physical form in Middle Earth anyway) was killed by a common dagger. And he is Maia.

Well technically an Istari, a Maiar clothed in flesh and subject to the weakness of flesh. Also by the time Grima kills him he has lost most of his power.

[Glorelendil]

Presumably Sauron was also "clothed in flesh" when facing the Last Alliance.

All I'm saying is that record is inconsistent and there's no clear and conclusive evidence (of which I am aware) that a special magical quality is required to harm Sauron.

[Rich H]

All I'm saying is that record is inconsistent and there's no clear and conclusive evidence (of which I am aware) that a special magical quality is required to harm Sauron.

This is what's confused me as I'm just catching up with reading this thread. I never got the impression that Sauron was immune to any attacks except particular magic +3 weapons of mega-bad-ass slaying. He feared Anduril because it was forged from Narsil, the sword that cut the One Ring from his pinky, not because it was one of the few weapons that could do that.

[Angelalex242]

Well, Smaug is tough enough that you have to precisely hit a hole in his armor to kill him. The Balrog is tough enough to laugh at armies full of dwarves. The Witch King is immune to males. No Y chromosomes need apply.

So, by power scaling, Sauron, tougher then any of them, should certainly be able to shrug off a sword blow from random guy A. And he did kill both Elendil and Gil Galad, both of whom were pretty darn awesome. Isildur basically had to surprise him.