Permanent Shadow

[Angelalex242]

I've just discovered it's possible to gain permanent Shadow without gaining the Flaw that goes with it.

...what if it weren't? What if permanent Shadow, no matter how you got it, no matter the excuse, always carried the flaw of your Shadow Weakness, such that your Flaws always equaled your Permanent Shadow?

How does the game change if this occurs?

[Michebugio]

Effects and monsters who can cause Permanent Shadow points would become two times as dangerous, since they would also cause bouts of madness if the automatic development of a Flaw is involved. Which can be devastating.

Also, your total permanent Shadow points buffer before losing control of your character would be just 4 (the Flaws you can accumulate before complete madness), thus independent of how much Hope you have left.

It's a big difference that would make your players fear the Miserable condition much, much more: they not only have to worry about not becoming Miserable, they have to worry about getting Permanent Shadow points in general, thus keeping their Hope scores much higher than their current Shadow points, just to be safe. This would also almost automatically lead to more flawed characters in your campaign, which can or cannot suit well the spirit of your games.

[Rich H]

...what if it weren't? What if permanent Shadow, no matter how you got it, no matter the excuse, always carried the flaw of your Shadow Weakness, such that your Flaws always equaled your Permanent Shadow?

... And as part of that are you saying a Bout of Madness occurs or that the character gains the Flaw but doesn't undergo the bout? You need to be clear on that as such an event has a high impact on the game session it occurs in, the adventure and ongoing campaign plots, and the character(s) involved.

[Angelalex242]

...actually, yes. Any permanent Shadow Point gained...even the one from High Elf's Lesser Ring...gives you a bout of Madness. In the case of the Lesser Ring 'Reward', Sauron's might damages your brain the minute you put the thing on, but you learn how to endure it thereafter, for example. Which means you'd actually suffer that Madness during a 'Fellowship' phase.

Presumably, such an increase in the strength of Shadow would involve Sauron getting stronger somehow. (but not regaining the One, cause that's game over.)

[Rich H]

...actually, yes. Any permanent Shadow Point gained...even the one from High Elf's Lesser Ring...gives you a bout of Madness.

... Pretty much agree with the points raised by Michebugio, then. I think it would screw over the PCs far too much. Those other Shadow Point gains (that don't result in a Bout of Madness) would be extremely harsh and wouldn't provide worthwhile benefits (eg, the Lesser Ring) or would be a double hit (Shadow Points plus Bout) if administered by an Adversary or an evironmental factor if you adopted this house rule/incorrect interpretation of the RAW.

[Falenthal]

I also play it as Michebugio says. In my game, a Permanent Shadow Point is not the same as a Flaw.
A Bout of Madness happens when your Hope Points are equal or lower than your Shadow Points, and said Bout has two consequences: the heroe gains a Flaw and a Permanent Shadow Point.
But Flaws, Permanent Shadow Points and even Bouts of Madness are not the same thing. They just happen to go together well.

[Valarian]

A Bout of Madness happens when your Hope Points are equal or lower than your Shadow Points, and said Bout has two consequences: the heroe gains a Flaw and a Permanent Shadow Point.

Just to be clear, here. When your Hope Points are equal or lower than your Shadow Points, you are Miserable. The bout of madness happens only when an Eye is rolled while Miserable.

[Falenthal]

A Bout of Madness happens when your Hope Points are equal or lower than your Shadow Points, and said Bout has two consequences: the heroe gains a Flaw and a Permanent Shadow Point.

Just to be clear, here. When your Hope Points are equal or lower than your Shadow Points, you are Miserable. The bout of madness happens only when an Eye is rolled while Miserable.

Right! I forgot to write it that way.

[Rich H]

I appreciate this is slightly off-topic but it's easier to think of things in this way: a Bout of Madness produces a permanent point of Shadow but isn't the only way of getting Permanent Shadow.