Black Tom (everyone in; spoilers for Dead of Winter)

[Angelalex242]

As I recall, trolls refer to other sentients as 'supper.'

So why aren't they eating the farmers? It's kind of a contradiction. Or whoever wrote the book didn't study if trolls were even domesticated in the first place.

I've certainly never heard of it being done in the actual books...that is, Silmarillion, Hobbit, LOTR.

[Indur Dawndeath]

Black Tom, is surely strong enough to beat the trolls into submission, otherwise the trolls would just eat him instead of working for the food.
Black Tom must be a character, like Viglar. Happy to use a Troll and happy to beat one if necessary.
I don't see the trolls fight for him, if the players gets in his way, they'll be happy to betray him.
BT is perhaps not 100% evil, but he is corrupted, thats for sure.
He could be redeemed though, if he turned away from evil

Cheers

[Mytholder]

As I recall, trolls refer to other sentients as 'supper.'

So why aren't they eating the farmers? It's kind of a contradiction. Or whoever wrote the book didn't study if trolls were even domesticated in the first place.

I've certainly never heard of it being done in the actual books...that is, Silmarillion, Hobbit, LOTR.

It's not in the books, no, but I don't think it's contradictory. The trolls portrayed in the Hobbit are evil, but they're more petty and greedy than murderous. They also clearly have some concept of money, so they have at least a vague understanding of the concept of trade.

Imagine you're a lone Hill Troll, and you've just wandered down from the mountains. There's a juicy flock of sheep there - but before you can gobble them all up, out come these farmers. There are too many of 'em to fight, and they've got long pointy sticks. Hmm. You could use those sticks as skewers, roast 'em up good and tasty.

What's this? They're offering you a baked pie? And a big cauldron of troll-draught, which is like beer if you mix in more sheep bits? Yum yum yum. You'll eat them tomorrow... only tomorrow they say you'll get more troll-draught and another pie if you help them move some rocks. All right... eat them the next day then, maybe. You're just doing this for the baked goods and the booze, neither of which you can easily procure on your own. Not that you know the word procure, you're a troll.

From the farmers' point of view, the trolls are like extremely dangerous bulls - useful animals to have around, but damned expensive and you must never, ever trust them. There'd be lots of horrible stories of accidents when a family's troll gets loose or cranky or when little Bobby gets too close to the troll and now he's One-Leg Bob.

Capturing a troll is like raising a barn or bringing in the harvest - everyone in the valley helps out that day, and you'll return the favour next year when another troll. It doesn't always work - for every troll who's placid and lazy enough to take the deal, there'd be one who's too nasty to be brought to heel, and has to be destroyed.

The trolls certainly aren't redeemed, nor are the farmers trying to do so. Some are just a little more lazy than they're evil. Other trolls in the Vales are simply enslaved, and forced to work with iron collars around their necks and goads stabbed into their stony flesh, but it would take a big and well-organised (and cruel) farmstead to keep a troll like that.

[zedturtle]

So why aren't they eating the farmers? It's kind of a contradiction. Or whoever wrote the book didn't study if trolls were even domesticated in the first place.

That's a heck of a thing to say about Francesco and Gareth!

EDIT: I see Gareth is defending himself... Cool!

- - - - -

I like the idea of Black Tom using trolls, just because it will throw a wrench in the minds of players who think in absolute terms. But I don't want BT to be Evil, as I don't want Beorn to be allying with Evil even in a 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' kind of way.

So are the farmers who do this Evil? evil? opportunistic?

[Rich H]

So are the farmers who do this Evil? evil? opportunistic?

Opportunistic to the point of putting the ends before the means when it comes to certain things/options. I certainly wouldn't call that wholly evil - they do what they must to survive and if one path seems to them to be the easier course to get to where they want to be then they'll likely take it; but eventually such actions could lead to more evil ones further down the road. The farmers may well apply the logic that while the trolls are serving them, they aren't wandering the wilds eating all and sundry, are they? Which, is a good thing.

Great response from Gareth too; highly entertaining.

[Rich H]

There'd be lots of horrible stories of accidents when a family's troll gets loose or cranky or when little Bobby gets too close to the troll and now he's One-Leg Bob.

My old hobbit character in MERP lost all his toes on one of his feet to a Stone Troll that was attempting to eat him. Very grisly way to go and forever a reminder of his encounter with one.

[Mytholder]

I like the idea of Black Tom using trolls, just because it will throw a wrench in the minds of players who think in absolute terms. But I don't want BT to be Evil, as I don't want Beorn to be allying with Evil even in a 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' kind of way.

So are the farmers who do this Evil? evil? opportunistic?

They're Middle Men, men of the Twilight - easily led astray. Slavery is certainly an Evil act, even when done to trolls or orcs, but I don't think that _employing_ a troll is necessarily evil - unwise, certainly, but nothing more.

[zedturtle]

I like the idea of Black Tom using trolls, just because it will throw a wrench in the minds of players who think in absolute terms. But I don't want BT to be Evil, as I don't want Beorn to be allying with Evil even in a 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' kind of way.

So are the farmers who do this Evil? evil? opportunistic?

They're Middle Men, men of the Twilight - easily led astray. Slavery is certainly an Evil act, even when done to trolls or orcs, but I don't think that _employing_ a troll is necessarily evil - unwise, certainly, but nothing more.

Cool, thanks for all the great insights!

Any thoughts on the other questions? Especially the name?

[TheScribbler]

Interesting discussion, and fits with a line I remember reading about how the fact that trolls had gone from being sorta lazily brutish & dangerous to being decidedly vicious & evil (as a sign of Sauron's growing influence).

The overall situation reminds me of the first Bazil Broketail book: one of the problems the boy and his partner the war dragon (think a 10' tall dinosaur-like creature with some humanoid traits, like speech & hands that can hold a sword, the setting's wartime equivalent to a small tank) have is that a wealthy farmer from their home region that illegally hired on trolls as hard labor (paying them with vast amounts of ale) was refusing to give them pay or their papers because the dragon (a natural enemy of trolls) had gotten into a fight with and killed a number of them.

[Otaku-sempai]

A big thank you goes to Gareth for his clarification. I was thinking much along the same lines.

About Black Tom. There is nothing indicating that he is an immigrant or descended from Southron or Easterling stock. Nor does he seem to have an especially unsavory reputation. I suggest that his nickname is derived from his appearance and/or his general disposition. I do imagine Tom as having black hair, perhaps covering most of his body. He might in addition be deeply tanned from working outdoors. From a distance he might easily be mistaken for Beorn. He might also have a grim disposition or be quick to anger.