Voluntary bout of madness?

[Rich H]

Depends on whether you view wisdom as mental toughness or having to act like Elrond. If the former, Frodo might well qualify for his 6.

A strong will is the purview of Wits and being hard to demoralise is associated with Heart as per the RAW. If you want to alter things and associate mental toughness with Wisdom then that's your call but that isn't how the official rules are set up. Wisdom's all about self learning/understanding and applying good judgement - a form of personal enlightenment.

[Deadmanwalking]

Depends on whether you view wisdom as mental toughness or having to act like Elrond. If the former, Frodo might well qualify for his 6.

A strong will is the purview of Wits and being hard to demoralise is associated with Heart as per the RAW. If you want to alter things and associate mental toughness with Wisdom then that's your call but that isn't how the official rules are set up. Wisdom's all about self learning/understanding and applying good judgement - a form of personal enlightenment.

How is strong will a purview of Wits?

I'm not recalling any mechanics at all that revolve around mind control, and those that involve some other aspect of willpower seem a mix of Wisdom, Valour, and Heart. I agree that wisdom isn't primarily strong will alone, but where do you get Wits?

[Rich H]

How is strong will a purview of Wits?

Page 84 of the rules under Wits. It's there in black and white.

I'm not recalling any mechanics at all that revolve around mind control, and those that involve some other aspect of willpower seem a mix of Wisdom, Valour, and Heart. I agree that wisdom isn't primarily strong will alone, but where do you get Wits?

Wisdom isn't anything to do with strong will, primarily or otherwise. Resisting corruption is primarily achieved through a character's Wisdom (ie, their sense of self and enlightenment) and may be boosted in times of great need (ie, spending Hope) with a character's Heart attribute (ie, being hard to demoralise etc).

[Angelalex242]

Well...there's also cultural differences. Wisdom 6 Hobbits can't be expected to act like Wisdom 6 Elves anyway.

After all, it's inevitable some long running game is going to have a Wisdom 6 Hobbit. What would that honestly look like?

[Rich H]

Well...there's also cultural differences. Wisdom 6 Hobbits can't be expected to act like Wisdom 6 Elves anyway.

A Body 4 Hobbit can do the same as a Body 4 Elf. A Valour 6 Hobbit is just as brave as a Valour 6 Dwarf. Why is Wisdom any different. You misunderstood what Wisdom is in the RAW; I was therefore putting you right and pointing out that Frodo in no way needed a Wisdom of 6. Such races may have a different way of articulating their Wisdom (through their individual personality/character) but they will all still boil down to the same thing - personal enlightenment and good judgement, not mental toughness. Because that is what Wisdom *is*.

After all, it's inevitable some long running game is going to have a Wisdom 6 Hobbit. What would that honestly look like?

Answered above. And that's a completely different point you were making to your original assertion that Frodo has a Wisdom of 6 to resist the ring (I don't think he does at all) and that Wisdom is about mental toughness (it isn't, as my quotes above calling on the RAW point out).

[Angelalex242]

And you don't consider the journey from one end of Middle Earth to the other to be enlightening? Consider the sheer XP totals the War of the Ring would've handed out to the party....

He surely hit Wisdom 6 by the time he reached Mt. Doom, even if it's a sad, grim sort of wisdom come from seeing the worst of the worst of what Middle Earth had to offer.

[Rich H]

Nice of you to acknowledge what Wisdom relates to, even if not directly so.

And you don't consider the journey from one end of Middle Earth to the other to be enlightening? Consider the sheer XP totals the War of the Ring would've handed out to the party....

... Doesn't mean they'd get spent on Wisdom. Also, you seem to deal in extremes; you've oft said that character x must have maximum in skill y, you do it lots. I don't think Frodo did have Wisdom 6 when he was at Mount Doom. I think 4 is fine. It's a high stat but not as high as someone like Elrond, which fits the game mechanics and the source material. Also, his last Fellowship Phase was with Faramir; arguably back in Lorien so if we take your logic he hadn't been able to spend those points yet. After the whole of the events of LotR, once he spent those last points, I may have pegged Frodo at 5 in Wisdom but not 6.

He surely hit Wisdom 6 by the time he reached Mt. Doom, even if it's a sad, grim sort of wisdom come from seeing the worst of the worst of what Middle Earth had to offer.

See above.

If you want to continue this debate then do so with someone else; I don't think you engage honestly in discussions here so I don't see the point in continuing as it isn't particularly constructive.

[Angelalex242]

Ad Hominem isn't kosher. You have no right to tell me if I engage honestly in debate or not.

Anyways, my opinions being vastly different from yours doesn't invalidate them. I just have my own way to enjoy the game and the world.

[Rich H]

Ad Hominem isn't kosher. You have no right to tell me if I engage honestly in debate or not.

I simply don't think you do engage in an honest debate, I'm sorry if that upsets you; your posts here in this thread, in discussion with me, are an example of why and I'm tired of trying to discuss things constructively with you (as well as to offer advice and point out where you're wrong in relation to the RAW) as you don't seem to want to do the same, hence the conclusion that you aren't engaging in an honest discussion.

EDIT: I think its for the best if we ignore each other from now on so that we avoid conversations like this - seems to be the best way to go and would be best all round.

Anyways, my opinions being vastly different from yours doesn't invalidate them. I just have my own way to enjoy the game and the world.

... Not as per the RAW though (ie, misquoting Wisdom); which like I said earlier is up to but expect people to point out when what you're stating is factually not correct.

[Michebugio]

Whoa whoa, easy there! Drop your weapons and have some beer, both of you

My 2 cents are that both of you have a point there, but one way or the other it doesn't matter: Frodo didn't do much more than resisting the lure of the Ring for a year or so, therefore I would expect that he started his Campaign (The War of the Ring) with Wisdom 2 and the Brave at a Pinch Virtue (he's a Baggins, right?).
Then whatever was his Wisdom score at the end of the Campaign, he burned quickly through his Hope and probably took Confidence repeatedly until the job was done

It just depends on how many Experience points the Loremaster (J.R.R.?