Look-outs

[Rich H]

A lookout's role does not include keeping watch in shifts while camping. If it did, why would a non-lookout have to spend a point of Hope to deal with a hazard that a lookout is supposed to deal with?

Hazards that target lookouts should take place while the lookouts are doing their job, which is different than other roles.

I don't have TfW to hand but it sounds like the Hazard is designated as a Look Out Hazard - it therefore should target that role. If a party has a character in that role then they should face the Hazard or if not then a Hope point can get spent by someone else to step into that role.

[Rich H]

Do we have a reference/page number to refer to? Can the OP quote the text from TfW... That would help as if the Hazard is Look Out specific then they should face the Hazard-related test.

[Stormcrow]

"Wait, it just HAPPENS to be the lookout's shift? Okay, from now on the lookout won't take a night shift. Now that hazard can't happen."

[Rich H]

"Wait, it just HAPPENS to be the lookout's shift? Okay, from now on the lookout won't take a night shift. Now that hard can't happen."

That's gaming the system of the worse kind! Although it did make me chuckle.

[Majestic]

The fact that the Hazard has already been determined as happening to a Look Out has determined this. The Warg attack is the Hazard that was triggered earlier when an EYE was rolled on a Travel Test, yes? Therefore that's the random element, don't add in *another* check to see who the Hazard effects as that's already been decided. If a rock fall hazard occurred while the companions were scaling a mountainside and it was meant to happen to just the scout then you wouldn't roll randomly to see which character was exposed by the rock fall would you? Why is the Warg attack associated with the Look Out's Hazard any different?

I suppose it's like you said, it's using the roles for what they were designed. It gives those characters with a high Awareness a chance to shine in their role.

That's not the reason. From how you've described it, and correct me if I'm wrong, the Warg Hazard was identified as applying to the Look Out(s) so it has to happen when the Look Out is around/active (ie, on watch if you've decided that it occurs at night while the PCs are camping).

Sorry but am I missing something here because I'm struggling to understand why this is 'odd' for you?

Part of the confusion might be because Tales from Wilderland was the first supplement, written back when the game was new and the Journey rules were much different from what they are now. So to answer your question, yes, an EYE on a Travel test is what would signal that a Hazard has occurred, and then (normally) I would roll to find out randomly who is the target of said Hazard. For some reason, many of the 'Look-out' Hazards in Tales take place at night, though:

For example, in "Don't Leave the Path". some movement in the woods startles one of the ponies. Unless the look-out reacts in time, the pony bolts into the trees and vanishes (a successful Awareness test allows the look-out to grab the animal's bridle before it flees).

Then in the same adventure a flock of butterflies flutters down onto everyone. The look-out needs to make a Wisdom roll to stay awake to drive them off (as if only look-outs are the ones who keep watch).

And again in "The Crossings of Celduin", a flock of gore-crows swoops down and attacks the company's horses, scaring them. That is, unless the look-outs drive them off or catch the horses.

So that's what caused me to pose this question. There's been a few situations where we've detailed (briefly) that the company sets up camp (like before Baldor drinks from the stream, or when they spend the night at Mountain Hall). I'll typically ask if they're setting up watch or not (sometimes in a friendly city they'll decide not to, though two recent incidents in the middle of the night at Mountain Hall might change that).

It would just be strange to have these night events happen only when the look-out is the target. Perhaps - just for this adventure (with these night incidents), it would be better to assign those Hazards to any companion, and then have the random adventurer (the one rolled as randomly the one to get the Hazard assigned) be the one who is currently on watch when they happen.

Hazards that target lookouts should take place while the lookouts are doing their job, which is different than other roles.

I think Stormcrow is articulating well what I find strange about it. If the Hazard happens at night, why is the Look-out the only one who makes the roll?

[Rich H]

If a hazard is assigned/targeted to a specific travel role then it has to be those characters in that role that deal with it. Think of the Hazard as being pre-destined to apply to the role in question - it's up to you to select a Hazard for that role that is the most appropriate for the circumstances in question, they aren't always going to be.

I'll try and comment on each hazard individually, with the above in mind...

For example, in "Don't Leave the Path". some movement in the woods startles one of the ponies. Unless the look-out reacts in time, the pony bolts into the trees and vanishes (a successful Awareness test allows the look-out to grab the animal's bridle before it flees).

Okay, so here the Look Out is the only one tending, or around, the pony at that point in time, therefore it applies to them as they've seen the movement in the trees and are therefore more able to react to the pony bolting than anyone else is.

Then in the same adventure a flock of butterflies flutters down onto everyone. The look-out needs to make a Wisdom roll to stay awake to drive them off (as if only look-outs are the ones who keep watch).

This is a Hazard predestined to happen when the Look-Out is on their watch while others sleep. If they are sharing that particular watch with non-Look Outs (I appreciate everyone awake is technically a look-out but not in the sense of the travel roles) then they've nodded off and only the Look-Out gets to try and stay awake.

And again in "The Crossings of Celduin", a flock of gore-crows swoops down and attacks the company's horses, scaring them. That is, unless the look-outs drive them off or catch the horses.

Like the bolting pony; the nature of being a Look-Out is that they spot trouble. You could also say that this Hazard happens when the Guide and Scout are some distance away examining a trail and discussing the correct route and the Hunter is out foraging. Therefore only Look-Outs have the opportunity to see off the gore-crows.

It would just be strange to have these night events happen only when the look-out is the target.

If they are Look Out specific Hazards and you want to have them happen at night when the company are making camp then its exactly right that they should occur when only the Look-Out can deal with them - ie, usually when it is his watch.

Perhaps - just for this adventure (with these night incidents), it would be better to assign those Hazards to any companion, and then have the random adventurer (the one rolled as randomly the one to get the Hazard assigned) be the one who is currently on watch when they happen.

Hmmm, I don't think so. Working from memory here but aren't Look Out specific Hazards geared up to test skills which Look Outs should be best at when compared to other PCs (eg, Awareness)? If you randomise who the Look Out Hazard is applied to then that's penalising your gaming group as someone with a poor Awareness may become the target.

Hazards that target lookouts should take place while the lookouts are doing their job, which is different than other roles.

I think Stormcrow is articulating well what I find strange about it. If the Hazard happens at night, why is the Look-out the only one who makes the roll?

Because everyone else is asleep. The Hazard chosen is a Look Out specific one so it's predestined to happen to just the Look Out. It therefore has to happen when he's on watch or some other situation where it's logical for only the Look Out to be able to respond.

Does that help at all?

[Falenthal]

You can also introduce some metagaming here and explain to the players that the description of the Hazard is just for flavour. The fact is that something bad targets the company and the dice said that only the Look-out(s) can prevent it. In my game they also set watches, but if a Hazard targets the Look-out and I say that something bad happens during the Look-out's watch, no one complains. They know it's part of the game and the mechanics, the same as when the Hunter is the only one who can shoot at a boar for dinner.

I know, bad solution. But when the mechanics get in the way of fun, you either skip the mechanics or explain them to the players and move on with the adventure.

[Rich H]

... In my game they also set watches, but if a Hazard targets the Look-out and I say that something bad happens during the Look-out's watch, no one complains. They know it's part of the game and the mechanics, the same as when the Hunter is the only one who can shoot at a boar for dinner.

I know, bad solution. ...

I think you're doing yourself a disservice there; it isn't a bad solution at all, it's exactly how the mechanics of Hazards should be applied in such circumstances!

[Stormcrow]

I disagree with the idea of finding an excuse to hit the lookouts with a hazard rolled for lookouts. Hazards that apply to lookouts occur to them because they're looking out—their job is to look for trouble and warn the party. While the guide is thinking about the route to take and the scouts are studying the ground for a suitable campsite, lookouts are just watching for trouble. Hazards for lookouts are those hazards which have to be spotted by someone actively looking for it.

When camping, everyone takes turns watching. This is not the role of the lookout, and the mechanics of the game don't support it. Not only does it force the hazard to only occur while a subset of party members are on watch, but it also means that all lookouts must be on watch together, since all lookouts get to make rolls for lookout hazards. This is obviously nonsense.

Some lookout hazards, like Blanket of Butterflies, simply don't make sense, and are obviously set-pieces forced into the hazard structure. ("The company are saved when one of the insects is inhaled by a sleeping companion, and his choking snorts wake the rest." Really?) Adjust them to fit better. For example, Blanket of Butterflies can have the lookouts make Awareness tests to notice that a large flock of butterflies has been gathering around the party. Success means the party drives away the butterflies; failure means the party camps, then the butterflies hum their lullaby, putting the watch to sleep and half-suffocating the heroes for 4 fatigue points each.

[Rich H]

I disagree with the idea of finding an excuse to hit the lookouts with a hazard rolled for lookouts. Hazards that apply to lookouts occur to them because they're looking out—their job is to look for trouble and warn the party. While the guide is thinking about the route to take and the scouts are studying the ground for a suitable campsite, lookouts are just watching for trouble. Hazards for lookouts are those hazards which have to be spotted by someone actively looking for it.

Look-Outs are there to spot any kind of trouble, not actively looking for a specific kind. I don't see any difference between my explanations of how to fit Look Out Hazards within a campsite scene to your own below. They are explanations of using the Hazard vs. the Look Out role which, using the TOR rules, has been identified as applying to. Other characters not designated as Look Outs don't get to role to avoid it.

If they should apply to all characters then it would be better to not use it as a Hazard but more of a set piece.

When camping, everyone takes turns watching. This is not the role of the lookout, and the mechanics of the game don't support it. Not only does it force the hazard to only occur while a subset of party members are on watch, but it also means that all lookouts must be on watch together, since all lookouts get to make rolls for lookout hazards. This is obviously nonsense.

I'd just have the Look Outs all roll their Awareness in advance. If anyone passes I'd play out the Hazard scene with the one with the highest roll as it would have been avoided whereas if they all failed then I'd play out the Hazard scene with the one with the lowest roll. I don't see a problem with working that way, you don't have to have everyone on watch together and most gamers understand how sometimes rolls in advance affect elements of the game further down the line and determine what happens and to who.

Some lookout hazards, like Blanket of Butterflies, simply don't make sense, and are obviously set-pieces forced into the hazard structure. ("The company are saved when one of the insects is inhaled by a sleeping companion, and his choking snorts wake the rest." Really?) Adjust them to fit better. For example, Blanket of Butterflies can have the lookouts make Awareness tests to notice that a large flock of butterflies has been gathering around the party. Success means the party drives away the butterflies; failure means the party camps, then the butterflies hum their lullaby, putting the watch to sleep and half-suffocating the heroes for 4 fatigue points each.

It think that's a perfectly serviceable way of doing it. I think my explanation is too. Both work although I prefer yours.