So, will we ever get a Wizard type profession?

[Amargen]

I suppose I have a copper to toss into this ring (no pun intended).

M.E. should be filled with magic, virtually everywhere. but this should be the magic of enchantment... the walking sticks of Faramir IMO were made by people who were "lore-crafty" and put some of their heart into what they made. a similar method but much lesser version of elven-rope/cloaks/boats/pretty much everything. there is no reason that this sort of subtle magic can't be included... actually is, because of the ability to craft magical items.

Gandalf said that he once knew every SPELL of opening ever made, and could still recall scores of them without searching his thought. and since he then began reciting them en masse before the doors of durin it certainly indicates that there is a structured magical language and actual spells designed for various purposes. there are several ways to define just how/where this power comes from i.e. the song of the ainur, inherent power in the fea'r, etc.

however, I would have to say that this is most likely lore beyond the normal person's ability to use in other than a very minor way. a numenorean or elf-blood might have greater facility.

elves certainly knew great songs of power... evidenced by Finrod of course, who though defeated managed to enchant sauron so he couldn't identify his prisoners. Galadriel even after her ring lost it's power threw down dol guldur, so those songs aren't forgotten by her at least, and could certainly be taught to someone with a strong enough spirit... again, at a much more minor level.

I agree with many people that the morgothian power that lives in everything can be used for sauronic sorcery... there's too many examples to decide otherwise. like the Dark Side, it's quicker, easier... and inevitably corrupting. I also agree that wormtongue used this sort of magic on theoden. the only other believable explanation would be saruman cast a spell from a distance, which is plausible. I think wormtongue, being on-site as it were, is a better explanation.

so there is room for a minor mage of some kind, specializing in craft and in subtle, useful magic. but a Gandalf-level? the only way I see that happening is a campaign taking place in the far east where the group (very powerful group) has someone playing one or both of the blue wizards.

if you really want to play a mage, start a campaign in the first or early second age. much more room there for that kind of high-power role playing.

and NO FIREBALLS!

[Bradge]

The problem is not making magic available to characters: the point is that they simply don't learn it, so a Calling (or a profession, as for this topic's title) would be by far inappropriate given the nature of magic in Middle Earth.
And even if magic, albeit inherent to higher Men and Elves, could still be developed a bit more by members of those folks through study and application, we simply don't have any evidence of this in the books. But magic-using Cultures? Yes, definitely - and we already have some.

That would be my stance and understanding of Middle Earth. All the learning in the world won't enable magic for one who does not possess the potential already, and not everyone does. And it definitely seems cultural in its particular applications, not generic.

There is a good survey of magic in Middle Earth on the "One Wiki to Rule Them All" http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_in_Tolkien_Mythology

[Robin Smallburrow]

Agree completely with zedturtle's comments, although I compiled my magic system mainly because I believe a LM needs to know how religion, magic etc. are all inter-related so his/ her setting 'feels right'.

When players ask me tricky questions such as 'how does x culture view magic' or 'what does x believe in' I now feel confident I can answer them.

Btw, when players design new characters in my games I get them to make a 'magic potential' roll using Awareness, to see if they do have any innate gift - it is then up to the player if they want to explore this further.

Robin S.

[Bradge]

... although I compiled my magic system mainly because I believe a LM needs to know how religion, magic etc. are all inter-related so his/ her setting 'feels right'.

I followed your signature to your document on magic. It is incomplete and not quite usable for me I think, but well done so far and an interesting read. I subscribed to your resource thread so I could be kept updated as it evolves.

Btw, when players design new characters in my games I get them to make a 'magic potential' roll using Awareness, to see if they do have any innate gift - it is then up to the player if they want to explore this further.

I like that idea.

[zedturtle]

I have to respectfully disagree with Robin's idea, from a game design perspective. Character creation has no random elements, for rules as written. I believe that this is intentional; it should be a player choice (with Loremaster's approval) to play a character who has some magical capability.

[Rich H]

I have to respectfully disagree with Robin's idea, from a game design perspective. Character creation has no random elements, for rules as written. I believe that this is intentional; it should be a player choice (with Loremaster's approval) to play a character who has some magical capability.

I completely agree with you on this for the reasons you've described and also to tie it to Awareness, where the starting values for cultures don't necessarily align to 'magic potential', would seem less than desirable as well.

[Glorelendil]

I've been thinking about this idea of magic being 100% innate and not learned. All nature, no nurture. My first reaction was to hate it, because it implies some kind of binary genetic ability (c.f. "midichloridians"). And if such a thing existed, and were binary, it would mean individual Dúnedain, of royal descent, would either have it or not...none of this trace ability stuff. I couldn't think of a real-world analogue for something that worked like this. But then I realized I was trying to find an analogue between races of humans, whereas Elves and Men (and Dwarves) are distinct species. (Which raises the question of how Elves and Men could produce offspring, but I guess when Eru intercedes anything is possible.)

What if magical ability is linked to perception, and if you can't perceive magic it's very hard to do it. One analogy would be how dogs hear better than humans, and bats can "hear" so well they can use sound the way we use light. Or think about pigeons, who see colors that require four dimensions to describe (compared to our 3, and dogs' 2). Or think about animals' ability to sense earthquakes before humans.

I once wrote a 4-dimensional version of Conway's "Game of Life", that could only be viewed...of course...in 3 dimensions. As a 4D structure intersected the 3D viewing "plane", 3D structures would appear out of nowhere, then vanish. It seemed random, strange, and...well..."magical". But if I had been able to see in 4D it would have all made perfect sense.

So here's a theory of magic: Elves have the ability to perceive..."something"...and by perceiving it they can also manipulate it. Other races see a less-complete representation of it...in the way dogs see a less-colorful painting, or I saw a limited version of my own program...and the inability to see it fully makes it impossible, or nearly so, to manipulate it. This would explain why Men and Hobbits lump a bunch of phenomena under the label of "magic", which to Elves are several distinct things, none of which are very mysterious.

Men who have some Elvish blood would thus have some ability to perceive magic, and thus perhaps some ability to manipulate it.

Of course, this still doesn't address the big question that we have to deal with if we're going to adopt the claim that magic is innate to elves and impossible for men: so why can't Elven player-heroes become wizards?

[Michebugio]

Of course, this still doesn't address the big question that we have to deal with if we're going to adopt the claim that magic is innate to elves and impossible for men: so why can't Elven player-heroes become wizards?

Actually, there is already in the rules something that can be viewed as "undisclosure of magic potential through learning" for elves, and it is Elf magic, further enrichened with the Study with the Lampmaker Undertaking.

So, elven heroes can become "wizards", it's just that it's not, again, a "profession". Any elf with any Calling can learn that magic, because you don't need to be a "wizard" or to apply to a "wizardry school" (yeuuch, this term gives me the creeps when talking about Tolkien!) to learn it.

[Glorelendil]

Yes, I am aware of Elven Magic and Study with the Lampmaker. I was offering a counterpoint to the claim that magic can't be learned, not asking a rules question.

[Tolwen]

[...] But then I realized I was trying to find an analogue between races of humans, whereas Elves and Men (and Dwarves) are distinct species. (Which raises the question of how Elves and Men could produce offspring, but I guess when Eru intercedes anything is possible.)

Here the Professor is of help.
In Letter #153 (a draft) he explains these things:

I suppose that actually the chief difficulties I have involved myself in are scientific and biological — which worry me just as much as the theological and metaphysical (though you do not seem to mind them so much). Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event [...]
Elves and Men are represented as biologically akin in this 'history', because Elves are certain aspects of Men and their talents and desires, incarnated in my little world. They have certain freedoms and powers we should like to have, and the beauty and peril and sorrow of the possession of these things is exhibited in them. ....
---Letters, #153 (Sept. 1954) (my emphasis)

That also explains why elves and men can produce fertile offspring. Biologically (i.e. if you would look at their "genetics") they are the same species. The important difference is the spirit (the fëa) and its control over, and interactions with, the body (the hröa).
Dwarves are probably indeed a different "biological" species, as they (or at least their bodies) were devised by Aulë with his limited knowledge about the Children of Eru (elves and men). Interestingly, Eru calls them his "adopted" children, in contrast to his chosen (elves and men) which already creates a difference through terminology.
IIRC there is also some more on this in the HoMe10, but the above already shows quite well Tolkien's principal ideas on the matter.

Cheers
Tolwen