Hounds of Mirkwood

[Pangea]

Is there something preventing a Woodman from taking the Hound of Mirkwood Virtue twice?

[Rich H]

Masteries call out that you can take them more than once "... each Mastery can be acquired more than once by
the same character..." but Cultural Virtues specifically don't. Also, it's fairly obvious that other Cultural Virtues are only meant to be selected once so its logical to apply the same to Hound of Mirkwood,

[Pangea]

but Cultural Virtues specifically don't.
Okay, but where does it specify this? I cannot find mention of this.

Also, it's fairly obvious that other Cultural Virtues are only meant to be selected once so its logical to apply the same to Hound of Mirkwood,
The same here. True, some Virtues can only be selected once, but it does not mean others cannot.

My "feeling" as LM is that one would not take Hound twice, but I find no rule or writing or such to state that one cannot, and the player's idea that a person can have two dogs is not ridiculous at all.
Thus I was asking if there was some specific rule somewhere (other than maybe the default rule that if you say Masteries can be taken multiple times it could mean Virtues cannot).

[Rich H]

but Cultural Virtues specifically don't.
Okay, but where does it specify this? I cannot find mention of this.

I meant Cultural Virtues specifically don't mention the bit I quoted so you won't find it under their section; it's under the Masteries section.

Also, it's fairly obvious that other Cultural Virtues are only meant to be selected once so its logical to apply the same to Hound of Mirkwood,
The same here. True, some Virtues can only be selected once, but it does not mean others cannot.

Well, it kind of does. If it's obvious from a common sense perspective that most/all Cultural Virtues should only be selected once, and none of these Virtues say they can be selected more than once (whereas the text for Masteries does actually say they can be selected more than once), then the conclusion you really should draw is that Cultural Virtues are only selected the one time, not multiple times.

My "feeling" as LM is that one would not take Hound twice, but I find no rule or writing or such to state that one cannot, and the player's idea that a person can have two dogs is not ridiculous at all.

Go with your 'feeling', its serving you well here.

Two dogs would give some significant mechanical advantages that would likely unbalance them in play compared to other Virtues - eg, PC avoiding a Wound for each hound, the hounds making multiple targets Wearied, etc. An in-game reason for not being able to have more than one hound could be the care that is required to handle them effectively; more than one and the animals cannot be looked after and therefore wouldn't be effective in the way they are described in the rules.

My personal opinion is that RPG rules aren't there to inform a computer how to play the game, they assume some level of ability on behalf of the reader to infer and extrapolate rules and rulings from the provided text; which can't possibly cover every question or usage of the rules. That can be difficult to grasp sometimes for players used to playing other games or those that are new to the hobby.

Thus I was asking if there was some specific rule somewhere (other than maybe the default rule that if you say Masteries can be taken multiple times it could mean Virtues cannot).

There's no rule saying you can take them twice so the common sense judgement is that they cannot, as Masteries specifically state this. If Cultural Virtues could be taken more than once as well then that text would exist for them also. It doesn't.

[Pangea]

Thanks!
So, there is no specific rule stating you cannot, which is is what I thought but wanted to make sure.
Thus I'll just make my decision/calling against this, since it does not feel good or balanced to me.
But, as I said, the player has a valid point in that there is no reason a person cannot have two dogs, and his "level of ability on behalf of the reader to infer and extrapolate rules and rulings from the provided text" did not seem off to me when he told me that there was nothing stating you could not take the Virtue twice, and that if most Virtues had obvious inherent reasons for not being possible to cumulate, why not take those that can.

[Deadmanwalking]

It could easily be argued (and I would do so) that the fact that Masteries explicitly say you can purchase them multiple times (as do the few Rewards that can be purchased more than once) strongly implies that the same is not true of any other Virtues (or Rewards).

After all, if you could get any Virtue multiple times, why the need to specify that with Masteries and Masteries alone?

[Corvo]

Is there room for abuse for a double Hound of Mirkwood?

Sure, there are advantages:
-"immunity" from the first Sauron rune, for example.
-Hindering two foes... well, but only if the Hero is in melee with both foes.
-something else?
The second Hound isn't free, the Hero paid hefty XP for it, so it's bound to be somehow useful.

Can someone see something game-breaking in a second hound?

[jacksarge]

Can a dwarf get two Ravens?
He could send them in different directions for aerial reconnaissance

[Glorelendil]

If you want two Hounds just ask your LM if your Hound of Mirkwood can be a pair. Same mechanical effects, two dogs.

You can even call them Dan and Anne.

[Michebugio]

What if, instead, you COULD take Virtues more than once?

First of all, in the majority of cases, it would be useless!

Explanation: Virtues give conditional bonuses or abilities that almost never stack with themselves.
For example, Fierce Shot says: When you are using a great bow your ranged Damage bonus is based on your favoured Body score. Such benefit simply doesn’t stack with itself, so there’s no point in taking it twice.

This is valid for most Virtues, but there are notable exceptions. I’ll make a list and see what would be the game impact of taking them more than once:

King’s Men: Raise your maximum Endurance score by 3 points. Additionally, from now on the cost of raising your skill rating in Sword, Long Sword, Spear or Great Bow is lowered by 1 Experience point at each level.

If you take this more than once, each time your Endurance is raised by 3 points, and you lower by another 1 Experience point the cost of raising those weapon skills. Yes, it would be damn good.

Woeful Foresight: the effect of taking this more than once would be that of raising your Hope score by another point, and another use of the ability per Adventuring phase. Not bad.

Brothers to Bears: like King’s Men, each time your Endurance is raised by 3 points, but with no further effect. It’s still very nice since it’s a better Resilience.

Twice-baked Honey Cakes: the only effect of taking this more than once would be that of raising your Fellowship rating by another point. Nice.

Ravens of the Mountain: if you could take this more than once, you would have additional ravens that can be assigned to different tasks at the same time. It could be very useful and not OP, since you would have to spend a Virtue each time.

A Hunter’s Resolve: you spend Hope to recover a number of Endurance points equal to your favoured Heart rating additional times per day, equal to the number of times you take this Virtue. Not too bad.

Hound of Mirkwood: YES, YOU CAN HAVE TWO HOUNDS! Each time you take this, you raise your maximum Hope score by 2 points, your hounds can take additional Piercing Blows in your place equal to their number (just treat each of them differently... maybe giving them names would help), and you can choose an additional, different common skill to be assisted with.

And you can spend Experience points on each of them to train them: Harass makes additional opponents Weary, and Protect makes your hounds count as additional melee combatants.

I can’t think of other Virtues that could have stacking benefits.

And since it’s not specified by the RAW… I’m starting to think that, maybe, it COULD be possible to take those Virtues more than once… without even having game-breaking effects!