Worn with Sorrow and Toil

[Deadmanwalking]

Yeah, I'm sorta with Rocmistro only a little more so...I really don't think doing this is generally appropriate LM behavior.

Generally speaking, people should be able to tell when they're in danger of getting Weary or Miserable, as measured by their Fatigue and Shadow as compared to their Endurance and Hope. I mean, you generally don't go from happy to completely miserable in a moment, nor from completely rested to utterly exhausted.

In either case, the LM is most often better off inflicting some Shadow or Fatigue than inflicting conditions on people regardless of their current state of being.

[Rich H]

I'm not really a fan of Hazards applying a temporary Miserable or Wearied condition as I do think these have a great impact on the game so player (and characters) should have the opportunity to see these states growing and by doing so it also allows players to play their characters as approaching such conditions which my group often do. I'm therefore with those that wouldn't be supportive of an LM assigning such conditions to characters due to some event. For me, such tragic events, are the reason Shadow or Fatigue (or Endurance loss) is accumulated; being made Miserable or Wearied is a result of such gains.

[poosticks7]

I see what people are saying, but I do think there is a place for such a ruling.

An example might be: a hero is caught and tortured by the Enemy. As the other heroes mount a daring rescue they discover their broken friend. A strong case could be made for the hero being both miserable and weary until he has had a chance to recover in a sanctuary.

Or using the fellowship as an example, if they had been attacked by wargs AFTER they had attempted the crossing of the mountains such an encounter may have been under extreme duress. A case for being both weary and miserable during the encounter.

[Rocmistro]

Well, it's your game; do as you like. It seems most people that responded don't see the need or wisdom in it. I'm not sure what else to tell you.

That being said, I certainly don't think it's crazy to rule that someone who has just been tortured is both miserable and weary. But...let's consider...as for weary...assuming they are lingering at 1 endurance and have had no opportunity to rest, they would, by default, be weary. As for whether or not they are miserable...that's up to them. You could argue that, through the course of their torture, they accumulate 1 shadow point per day of imprisonment (or per "session" of torture if they are actively being stretched/flogged/burned, etc.) unless they make a successful Wisdom test. That would get them shadow points pretty quickly, and thus, miserable.

Conversely, I think it would be crazy to just rule that a Hero is Weary and Miserable, as a result of torture, without the corresponding endurance loss and shadow gain.

As for just having crossed the mountains...why do you think they'd be Weary or Miserable just because Wolves were descending on them? Maybe they'd be happy to get out of the cold...

I'm just saying there is a mechanic that wonderfully abstracts the cause-and-effect of how a hero devolves from "not miserable" > "miserable", and from "not weary" > "weary". I think that should be preserved.

[Rich H]

I see what people are saying, but I do think there is a place for such a ruling.

An example might be: a hero is caught and tortured by the Enemy. As the other heroes mount a daring rescue they discover their broken friend. A strong case could be made for the hero being both miserable and weary until he has had a chance to recover in a sanctuary.

I do understand what you're trying to do here but in such a situation, as LM, I'd much rather apply a (temporary) trait to the character. Unlike the more positive Distinctive Features this would carry more negative aspects which the player could use as an RPing prompt or the LM could tag in the same way that Shadow Traits are used. Also, if tortured, wouldn't they have already been impacted by endurance loss, hope loss, etc? Surely they'd likely be one or both conditions anyway?

Or using the fellowship as an example, if they had been attacked by wargs AFTER they had attempted the crossing of the mountains such an encounter may have been under extreme duress. A case for being both weary and miserable during the encounter.

I just can't agree here. If they get across the mountains neither being miserable or wearied then to hit them with one of both conditions seems unfair, especially if players deliberately didn't spend Hope to avoid the miserable condition or spent it to avoid the wearied condition.

It's your game but I don't think it's a particular good way to challenge players and their characters.

[poosticks7]

Well I see what folk are saying, that's why I wanted to discuss it to get others feedback.

Was just trying to get some conversation going really NEW TOPIC PLEASE

[Majestic]

While I certainly understand the need to avoid doing something like that very often, I can see cases where the LM might impose at least one of those conditions, even though the players hadn't reached that state mechanically.

For instance, a few sessions ago, my players triggered a Revelation episode. They'd just spent days crossing the Narrows of the Forest, a nasty portion of Mirkwood that was especially treacherous and deadly. I went with (taken directly from Rivendell):

• A Weariness of the Heart. An unnatural sense of
tiredness has gotten hold of the company. Whether it
is due to some subtle sorcery or else it is not clear,
but all companions are considered Weary until the
Loremaster deems it appropriate to the circumstances

So that's just one example of one of those states being introduced, even though it wasn't reached naturally/mechanically by the PCs.

[zedturtle]

Right. I think one of the two states being imposed by LM fiat, even if the other state is likely to arise during the game, is copacetic. But doing both by fiat feels off. That doesnt make it wrong, and there might be times to do it that arise naturally from the game state. But I haven't yet felt the need, and don't know if I will.

[Majestic]

Yeah, I probably wouldn't either. The closest I can remember having a situation where it might be called for would be the dream sequence from "Those Who Tarry" in "Tales". But that was really about the PCs being in a horrible place where they resist the shadow during the role playing.

[aramis]

I wanted to open a discussion about the possibility of the double whammy of making a hero or group of heroes temporarily weary and miserable at the same time.

I'm interested to hear if any Loremaster has done that to their heroes and how it worked out narratively and mechanically.

Sorry - I've not been running since shortly after rivendell hit DTRPG... was busy with a playtest for a different company, which took the sunday game over.

Yes, I had a company that, due to travel failures, was both miserable and weary... as they were crossing the Misty Mountains. They were also low on hope... but we had Rivendell in play, and they had songs, and managed to get hope back in the pool with them. At least enough to feel safe pushing on to Rivendell. It was tense, nerve-wracking, even, travelling north to Rivendell. They took a short fellowship at Rivendell to recover hope and fatigue. And to write a new song. They then proceeded back towards Lórien, and there took a short fellowship to recover some more. It slowed their travels mightily, adding 2 months of resting at places of great beauty.