Evaluating the outcome of an Encounters optional rule

[Stormcrow]

I believe there are precedents for what Rich is describing. "So-and-so needs the heroes' help, so increase Tolerance by 1" sort of thing.

Page 189 of The One Ring Roleplaying Game or page 53 of the Loremaster's Book: Additional Modifiers. The Loremaster is encouraged to improvise Tolerance modifiers from -3 to +3.

It seems to me RAW makes it much too easy to be successful, but that could be because they are built around characters needing to succeed.

Encounter success outcomes are only an optional rule, to be used when there is some kind of reward that can vary in value. The general purpose of an encounter is to achieve a particular complex goal, which is done through the skill rolls themselves, not the accumulation of successes.

An encounter should never have to be "won" to continue the adventure. Take "The Marsh Bell," for example. At the beginning you've got an encounter with Gloin to get him to hire you for an adventure. The adventure suggests other ways to go on the adventure in case you can't convince him to hire you.

[Angelalex242]

I understand what you're saying Angelalex242. To apply your thoughts, I would simply tier the encounter boons down slightly. For example, if I had a company of inexperienced adventurers and they were meeting Gandalf, who really wanted to teach them something, yet I still thought the scene should rely on their efforts in some way, I would scale back the needed successes.

Maybe something like this:

0-1 Success
2-3 Great Success
4+ Extraordinary Success

That makes sense.

This means 'Gandalf understands new people are new, but if they surprise him in a pleasant way, he's got some goodies for them.'

[Rich H]

That makes sense.

This means 'Gandalf understands new people are new, but if they surprise him in a pleasant way, he's got some goodies for them.'

Except like me and Glorelendil said, and Stormcrow actually gave you page references, the rules as written already allow for this through increasing the Tolerance of an Encounter. You're creating a new rule that isn't really needed; it already exists.

[Falenthal]

And it's also easier to increase Tolerance than to make new ranges of outcomes.

See, for example, the encounter with Glóin in The Marsh Bell:

Luckily for the group, Glóin is eager to see his cousin and
brother recovered as soon as possible, so the Tolerance
rating of the Encounter receives a bonus of +1.

With James' HR, it would mean one more chance to increase the outcome, so a chance for +0 to +3. I think that's enough.

[Rich H]

And it's also easier to increase Tolerance than to make new ranges of outcomes.

That's a very could point as well; ease of use it often overlooked but really important for us time-strapped LMs!

[jamesrbrown]

My suggestion about the tiers works best perhaps if you're flipping the Tolerance on its head as a way to limit the number of rolls allowed. But, it can make sense too with the rules as written.

Except like me and Glorelendil said, and Stormcrow actually gave you page references, the rules as written already allow for this through increasing the Tolerance of an Encounter. You're creating a new rule that isn't really needed; it already exists.

Changing the number of successes in the tier structure is not creating a new rule. Look at some of the encounters in Tales from Wilderland. For example, on p. 51 the company encounters the village elders and the tier structure is this:

1 The villagers offer no welcome...
2-4 The villagers give a grudging welcome...
5+ The villagers greet the travellers as welcome guests!

Why do you suppose they limited it to only 3 possibilities? My thought would be because the elders really only had three possible responses (not four): no, yes and no, and absolutely yes. And getting to the 'absolutely yes' wouldn't be incredibly hard, even for inexperienced player-heroes. They could get to an extraordinarily successful outcome, not with more and more talking, but by saying a few good things to start.

And it's also easier to increase Tolerance than to make new ranges of outcomes.

That's a very could point as well; ease of use it often overlooked but really important for us time-strapped LMs!

I would think the exact opposite. It's much easier to create less outcomes than more. If you're time-strapped, creating less than four outcomes should be attractive to you.

That being said, I'm not arguing against increasing or decreasing Tolerance or the four-tier structure; it makes sense too. I'm just defending the idea of adjusting the tiers. I think all of it is legitimate, within the rules as written, and all of it makes perfect sense!

[Falenthal]

And it's also easier to increase Tolerance than to make new ranges of outcomes.

That's a very could point as well; ease of use it often overlooked but really important for us time-strapped LMs!

I would think the exact opposite. It's much easier to create less outcomes than more. If you're time-strapped, creating less than four outcomes should be attractive to you.

Well, I was thinking about using your HR for the already created adventures, where the different tiers are already defined.
Nonetheless, I think that when I create an encounter of my own I usually have just 3 tiers. 4 seems like too much thinking for me . Or I just create a 4th one where the amount of Treasure/Reward/etc is increased.

[jamesrbrown]

Well, I was thinking about using your HR for the already created adventures, where the different tiers are already defined.

Nonetheless, I think that when I create an encounter of my own I usually have just 3 tiers. 4 seems like too much thinking for me . Or I just create a 4th one where the amount of Treasure/Reward/etc is increased.

Yes, it's important to note that flipping the Tolerance on its head is really a HR suggestion of mine. I could have created an entirely new thread in the house rules forum, but it seemed to come up organically within this thread and is interwoven within the topic of evaluating an encounter, so I hope I'm forgiven for that.

Try it out! It works perfectly with all the encounters in the published adventures as is. I think you'll find it to work better than you realize and with additional unforeseen benefits. As I said, it won't limit role-playing, just the number of rolls that count toward success, which will give the Loremaster and players a clearer goal. For the Loremaster, he'll think about narrative suggestions for each skill use, and for the players, they'll think to use their skills meaningfully.

[Rich H]

Changing the number of successes in the tier structure is not creating a new rule.

I meant you're creating a new rule to simulate an NPC with greater Tolerance (re patience) for the encounter at hand. Appreciate that you can have different bands of success but these are to allow for variety with regards to what can be achieved. Those two things aren't really the same thing in my experience.

I would think the exact opposite. It's much easier to create less outcomes than more. If you're time-strapped, creating less than four outcomes should be attractive to you.

Considering my response above, that these are two separate elements of the rules, then it's not the exact opposite for me; it's more work. The levels of success in an Encounter could vary but if you go with the increase in Tolerance route, as per the RAW, you can also have varying bands of success offering more granularity if so desired (ie, a friendly encounter could still have more than 3 success tiers). I do go the route of usually only having 3 or 4 tiers whatever the encounter so increasing Tolerance to allow for a friendly/more patient ear adds for even further variation in the disposition of an NPC.

[jamesrbrown]

I see more of what your saying now, Falenthal. Decreasing the number of outcomes could be difficult when you're trying to tweak the encounters in published adventures; it might be better to increase the Tolerance. But, if I wanted to make it easier for inexperienced player-heroes without making them do more talking, I would try adjusting the ranges of success.

For example, on p. 73 of Tales from Wilderland, there is an encounter with the Lord of the Eagles. The structure is standard:

1 Narrow Success
2-4 Success
5-6 Great Success
7+ Extraordinary Success

It could be changed to something like this, without much effort:

1 Narrow Success
2-3 Success
4 Great Success
5+ Extraordinary Success