Tell me about Erebor

[barefoottourguide]

I have a potential scene in Erebor in my game and wanted info on the terrain between Lake Town and there, wildlife, potential encounters... descriptions of the entrance. Was any of this covered in the MERP or 1ring fan material?
Garrett

[Otaku-sempai]

(Edited for accuracy) I'm sure that it's been covered elsewhere, but even with just the core TOR books it shouldn't be too hard to imagine. The first part of the journey from Esgaroth to Lonely Mountain is likely to be by water; the overland route is slower and there is the danger of wandering into the nearby Long Marshes if one loses the track. The first few paragraphs of The Hobbit, Chapter XI, "On the Doorstep" describes the travel conditions pretty well.

In two days going they rowed right up the Long Lake and passed out into the River Running, and now they could all see the Lonely Mountain towering grim and tall before them. The stream was strong and their going slow. At the end of the third day, some miles up the river, they drew in to the left or western bank and disembarked. Here they were joined by the horses with other provisions and necessaries and the ponies for their own use that had been sent to meet them.

The company reached the Mountain by the end of the next day. One big difference now is that the land should be somewhat recovered from the Desolation of the Dragon; it might even be as green and fair as Thorin remembered it from his youth (depending on the time of year). A party using the same approach would first reach the great southern spur where Ravenhill is located. The river flows swift and noisy through the valley of Dale, looping around the east side of the city and back to pass near the end of the southern spur and Ravenhill.

An entirely overland route to reach the Mountain would take even longer, the ponies and horses that were to rendezvous with the company had been sent on ahead, say five days to a week for the entire journey. Of course the new Esgaroth was built several miles to the north of the town that was destroyed by Smaug.

[Rich H]

There may be some 'wiggle room' regarding the position of the Long Marshes. Otaku references the Hobbit but that doesn't take into account that Esgaroth was destroyed and then rebuilt (in a different location) so this may well mean the marshes are positioned differently due to this. In fact page 20 of the Lake Town supplement states the following with respect to the Long Marshes:

To enter the Long Marshes, a traveller needs only follow the River Running as it goes south beyond the Long Lake, or the Forest River to the west.

There's no mention here of the marshes lying to the north of Lake Town. And the LM map backs this up; there being a track of Border Lands that are classed as Easy terrain lying north of Lake Town and linking it directly to Dale, and beyond.

When I wrote the Dale supplement with others we took this into account, along with the reestablishment of Dale and decided that there would be overland, as well as river, routes which would exists between Dale and Lake Town and also between Dale and the Lonely Mountain. I think as the men of Dale and Lake Town as well as the Dwarves of Erebor reassert their influence over the surrounding lands, and the Shadow recedes (at least for a short while), then it would be logical to assume that travelling between these three locations should be a fairly easy task for most people, never mind adventurers, whether that be by land or water. Now, this may not be the case depending on the time of your campaign but for the period between 2946 and Sauron declaring himself in Mordor I think it should be.

[Otaku-sempai]

There may be some 'wiggle room' regarding the position of the Long Marshes. Otaku references the Hobbit but that doesn't take into account that Esgaroth was destroyed and then rebuilt (in a different location) so this may well mean the marshes are positioned differently due to this. In fact page 20 of the Lake Town supplement states the following with respect to the Long Marshes:

To enter the Long Marshes, a traveller needs only follow the River Running as it goes south beyond the Long Lake, or the Forest River to the west.

There's no mention here of the marshes lying to the north of Lake Town. And the LM map backs this up; there being a track of Border Lands that are classed as Easy terrain lying north of Lake Town and linking it directly to Dale, and beyond.

On the other hand, I'm not sure that New Esgaroth was built too far from the previous town. The new Lake-town was founded "northward higher up the shore," but I don't know that it was far north of where the Forest River empties into the Long Lake. Granted, the earlier town was near the mouth of the river, so Rich makes a compelling argument. He is mistaken, though, about the extent of the marshes. Tolkien wrote, in "A Warm Welcome" (boldface added for emphasis):

Great floods and rains had swollen the waters that flowed east and there had been an earthquake or two (which some were inclined to attribute to the dragon -- alluding to him chiefly with a curse and an ominous nod in the direction of the Mountain). The marshes and bogs had spread wider and wider on either side. Paths had vanished, and many a rider and wanderer too, if they had tried to find the lost ways across.

So an overland route could still conceivably be quite perilous even in later years. I do imagine that it shouldn't be difficult to avoid the marshes unless one is attempting to travel on a particularly dark night or is lost is a thick fog.

[barefoottourguide]

Thanks guys. It gives me lots to go by for my prep.
garrett

[Rich H]

On the other hand, I'm not sure that New Esgaroth was built too far from the previous town. The new Lake-town was founded "northward higher up the shore," but I don't know that it was far north of where the Forest River empties into the Long Lake. Granted, the earlier town was near the mouth of the river, so Rich makes a compelling argument.

A Loremaster can therefore decide how far north this is placed. I think there would be some logic to presume that those building a new settlement would make some attempt to move it away from marshland, if at all possible, to allow for some overland access; although trade and travel would still be predominantly via the rivers and lake itself. Additionally, I suspect there'd also be a strong desire amongst the lakemen to build the new town away from the fallen Smaug.

He is mistaken, though, about the extent of the marshes.

I'm not mistaken, allow me to explain why... What I've stated backs up what C7 have used within their supplements so far. Neither my comments nor the supplement I quoted contradict what you've quoted, as the marshes are still shown to the west and north-west of Lake Town on the map of Wilderland, as well as to the south but I'm assuming that's not open to debate. We should also take into consideration how marshlands can recede in better times, what time period Tolkien was referring to exactly, and also what 'either side' means in the bit you've quoted. Does Tolkien mean to the east and west, the north and south, west and south, or some other combination and in relation to what; the town, the lake, or the forest river? As he didn't go into a lot of detail his statement is a little vague as to where the marshes actually are and more than open to some interpretation and therefore, like I initially said, "some wiggle room". I'm guessing he meant 'either side' of the forest river and that therefore positions the marsh roughly north and south of the river which feeds into the lake from the west. This would therefore allow for a cross-land route to the north of the lake and Lake Town especially as the new settlement was placed further north albeit by how much is debateable. This is exactly what C7 illustrate on their Loremaster map of Wilderland where the marshes lie both to the north and south of the forest river but there's a tract of land linking Esgaroth to Erebor and something that seems logical.

[Otaku-sempai]

I think that it is clear that, even at the time of the old Lake-town (TA 2941), there was reasonably solid ground at the shore of Long Lake. The Men of Lake-town maintained outbuildings on the shore, stables and such. I am in full agreement that there must have been at least one reasonably safe overland passage leading north. And is is certainly possible that the marshlands receded noticeably in later years. Whether that was Tolkien's intention or not, it is a reasonable position to be taken by a Loremaster.

I am reasonably confident, though, that when Tolkien referred to 'either side' of the river, he meant the north and south banks and beyond.

It does seem to be Tolkien's intent that an overland route to the Lonely Mountain would take a bit longer to traverse than the route taken by Thorin and Company--by at least a day or two.

[Rich H]

I am reasonably confident, though, that when Tolkien referred to 'either side' of the river, he meant the north and south banks

As previously stated that was my assumption as well but I, like C7, think that there's room to allow for an overland route to the north. This doesn't contradict anything of Tolkien's writings on the subject, at least that I can see - ie, north of the river does not mean north of the lake as well.

[Otaku-sempai]

Rich, except perhaps for some minor details (and I'm not even sure about that) we seem to be pretty much in agreement at this point. I think that for purposes of drama and the potential for adventure that we should assume that bogs and marshes could still present a hazard if one strays too far from the shore of the lake.

[Rich H]

I think so too, it's why I was a little confused initially about you saying I was mistaken about the marsh and therefore felt the need to explain my reasoning more. I think we may disagree on the placements of Lake Town itself though - in my campaign I've placed it further to the north than I suspect you will have; there the land around it is less swampy and in the years since the fall of Smaug a cross land trade route has been established to Dale, although the waterways are still the preferred mode of transport.