Radagast's Magic Bags

[Rich H]

... but thiese bags sound weird to if the effect is so blatant regardless of fancy wording: creating a storm in minutes is not a minor magic effect.

STOP THE PRESS! Someone isn't happy with what an author has written in a little section of an adventure for a game. Film at 11.

If you don't like it, and think its weird and too "D&Dish", then change it. But then, you don't even have the book so it isn't even an issue for you, is it? Personally, I think the magical boons that Radagast offers the player-heroes are completely in keeping with what I expect from TOR and don't find them overstated at all.

[Majestic]

I thought they were very well done, too. During that adventure my players didn't even take up Radagast on his offer, and left the bag behind.

[Falenthal]

I must admit I did not give my players the chance to choose the bag of storms either. I found it too powerful and a strange use of magic. My idea of a gift is more a bottle of Miruvor or a Leaf-brooch that doesn't let your cloack fall.

But my players opted to avoid any kind of magical help and the theme was out of play.

[Rich H]

I must admit I did not give my players the chance to choose the bag of storms either. I found it too powerful and a strange use of magic.

It's funny how challenging this can be for the writers of TOR, and other games where there are strong perceptions of the IP and what it should be like based upon all our individual and unique preconceptions. This kind of stuff does interest me, even if you can't resolve it a lot of the time; did you find the Storm Bag more powerful than the other Boons offered and if so, why?

[Arthadan]

It's funny how challenging this can be for the writers of TOR, and other games where there are strong perceptions of the IP and what it should be like based upon all our individual and unique preconceptions. This kind of stuff does interest me, even if you can't resolve it a lot of the time; did you find the Storm Bag more powerful than the other Boons offered and if so, why?

Maybe the word is not "powerful", certainly there are other boons with greater impact in game like permanent bonuses (for the duration of the adventure) to some useful skills. I think the storm Bag is percieved as too powerful because it has a very noticeable effect which seems to be out of line with the subtle magic of Middle-earth. It's not so much about game impact (the Bag being overpowered), but about background fitting.

Granted that Sauron could darken the sky when unleashing his armies to go to war, but that kind of power should be out of reach for Heroes (even if the Bag has a single use). Also storms and cold seems related to evil.

[Rich H]

Maybe the word is not "powerful", certainly there are other boons with greater impact in game like permanent bonuses (for the duration of the adventure) to some useful skills. I think the storm Bag is percieved as too powerful because it has a very noticeable effect which seems to be out of line with the subtle magic of Middle-earth. It's not so much about game impact (the Bag being overpowered), but about background fitting.

Granted that Sauron could darken the sky when unleashing his armies to go to war, but that kind of power should be out of reach for Heroes (even if the Bag has a single use). Also storms and cold seems related to evil.

I don't think the execution of the storm appearing gradually over time is any more of a 'vulgar' display of magic than, say, Gandalf lighting up a copse of trees from a single lit branch, sources of such magic being from the Istari whether directly casting a spell or some one-use item. In fact, as it's effects are in no way immediate it is far less in my opinion. Considering these points, I'm not in agreement with that part of your statement, but I can appreciate why you may think otherwise as tolerances for such things and opinions aren't an exact science and often can't be fully rationalised in order for us to reach a consensus view.

I agree with you that the in-game effects of this are no greater, and possibly less so, than the other boons which grant bonuses to fairly useful skills for the duration of the adventure and I can understand people feeling that bad weather and storms are related more to the machinations or contrivances of the Enemy than those of the free peoples although I'm personally none too sure about that as I can see how elements such as the weather, fire, and so forth could attempt to be controlled and used to serve either side - good or evil.

Perhaps a more productive discussion, and more in keeping with the spirit of the OP and of more use within a RPG campaign, would be to see if a back story to the Storm Bag could be developed. Was the storm previously 'captured' by Radagast; or even Gandalf/Saruman and given to the Brown Wizard for use at a later date or just for safe keeping? If so, how did this happen? What event in the past could it have related to? Could releasing it again have some unforeseen repercussions? I ask all this because I think that having such an item within the game is more interesting than removing it as it provides the LM with additional elements and hooks to think about and develop further for use within their campaign should they so wish.

[Elmoth]

... but thiese bags sound weird to if the effect is so blatant regardless of fancy wording: creating a storm in minutes is not a minor magic effect.

STOP THE PRESS! Someone isn't happy with what an author has written in a little section of an adventure for a game. Film at 11.

If you don't like it, and think its weird and too "D&Dish", then change it. But then, you don't even have the book so it isn't even an issue for you, is it? Personally, I think the magical boons that Radagast offers the player-heroes are completely in keeping with what I expect from TOR and don't find them overstated at all.

I actually have the book, I just did not recall it since this adventure was directed by another member of the group. It seems he did not like it either since this item did not appear in the session. In any case having or not having the book is irrelevant regarding the comment, but hey, to each one his own.

Regarding your other answers lower in the thread, the capture of a storm for its later use (or simply to avoid it breaking havoc when it was captured since it could, say, was away all the crops of a region due to its extremely untimely arrival at the time) sounds cool if we want to follow that path. We have done that in Ars Magica. It would be a ward, then.

Summoning a powerful storm can affect crops in the area, the level of brooks that turn into raging torrents for a while and other more adventure-duration events or longer. It is not a short event. In the mountains it can cause avalanches and make paths more insecure (more difficult terrain for travelling?) depending on the severity of the storm. It can also increase Fatigue easily (an extra roll or 2?) since being drenched is not a great thing when moving around.

If released in the sea or a big river (smaller scale there), it can certainly break havoc with ships, and even sink a fleet. It would be a really powerful gift for the Gondorian admiral of Dol Amroth, for example, if he plans to go to war with Umbar or the like.

Don't know how the bag is portrayed, but making it rattle a little bit and emit low intensity tunders (you have to put your ear to the bag to hear them) from time to time might be cool.

[Arthadan]

And Ilúvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor
hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the
beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost!

From this quote I get the impression severe weather alterations are "evil" and destructive. Also Melkor had a thing for cruel cold:

In the north of the world Melkor had in the ages past reared Ered Engrin, the Iron Mountains, as a fence to his
citadel of Utumno; and they stood upon the borders of the regions of everlasting cold, in a great curve from east to
west.

Then combining this with the idea of Myths Transformed (in History of Middle-earth vol. X) that "lesser" evil Maiar could become "polstergeists" after their physicall body was destroyed, if they refused to go to Aman and were unable to create a new body, I've come up with the theory that what we have in the bag is an evil disembodied Maia which will create the storm to harass their captors... and could stick around.

Of course such a bag should be something unique, probably coming from Aman either ith the Istari, the Noldor Exiles, the Vanyar who came for the War of Wrath or (my favourite) a gift to the Númenoreans from Teleri Elves of Tol Eressëa which became a family heirloom of some Dúnedain house and was finally recovered by Gandalf and put to good use.

[Falenthal]

I must admit I did not give my players the chance to choose the bag of storms either. I found it too powerful and a strange use of magic.

It's funny how challenging this can be for the writers of TOR, and other games where there are strong perceptions of the IP and what it should be like based upon all our individual and unique preconceptions. This kind of stuff does interest me, even if you can't resolve it a lot of the time; did you find the Storm Bag more powerful than the other Boons offered and if so, why?

First of all, I wasn't bothered by the bag, and didn't give it much thought. I just read about it and felt that it didn't fit my view of what Radagast (or any other NPC) could give the heroes as a boon or help. I could try to rationalize now why it was so, if it could fit other artifacts we know about that appear in the canon, etc., but I don't feel it's needed.

The bag is just one of many possible rewards, so there's no impact in the adventure if it appears or not. The whole adventure was wonderful, so I prefer to have options (rewards, npcs, places, adversaries,...) from which to choose, even disregarding some, than to feel that the adventure was empty.
It would have bothered me if the boons had been vorpal swords and elven chainmails, and the quest consisted in storming the fortress and killing a whole army of orcs singlehandedly.

Concerning this adventure in particular, I might have disregarded the storm bag, but I added in the option to make Banna guide the heroes to visit Stonehallow (HotW p.50) and Trader's Island (HotW p.47) to ask there for further information, risking being spied in the way to Mountain Hall. This are option that the writer(s) have given us, so that we can tune a pre-written adventure into something that feels more personal to our own campaigns.

Summary: I'm not annoyed for individual objects, npcs, places,... that doesn't fit my view of Middle-Earth (we all don't share the same view, that's obvious). What I appreciate is that the written stuff offers choices from which to choose. Then I can pick up the ones I like and modify/disregard the ones I don't.

[mirkwoodfalcon]

I appreciate everyone's insight and thoughts on what the bag could do. I think the final form I've come up with is a table to roll against (since no one is sure which bag, black or blue, does which effect.) I've based some effects upon a quote by Gandalf that Radagast is "a master of shapes and of hues".

Upon opening the first bag, the player will roll 1d6. If 4-6 are rolled then the other, unopened bag is the storm bag; if 1-3 are rolled then this bag is the storm bag and the other does one of the 3 effects of 4-6.

1-3: In a few minutes, a great storm rolls over the area, enshrouding the sky in darkness and casting down a thick veil of rain. Thunder splits the sky, deafening those nearby.
4: The person who opened the bag is now perceived by others as a tiny red fox for the next 1d6 hours.
5: The person who opened the bag begins to glow with a pale, throbbing light for the next 1d6 hours.
6: A wheezing sound comes from the bag and the water around the companions suddenly begins to boil. 1d6 endurance damage to anyone standing in the water. (since the adventure is in a marsh, the Gladden Fields, it is highly likely that either they or some enemies will be standing in water when this bag is opened.)