Radagast's Magic Bags

[Glorelendil]

Maybe if it brought in a fog rather than a storm it would be more palatable to some.

[Arthadan]

I think it's mainly that we have no examples in the lore of magic items bearing spells you can cast at will (i.e. the iconic magic missile ring in D&D). We have magic items with magical properties, but they don't allow the bearer to "cast a spell" so to speak. I can't think of any example in the books right now

[Glorelendil]

I think it's mainly that we have no examples in the lore of magic items bearing spells you can cast at will (i.e. the iconic magic missile ring in D&D). We have magic items with magical properties, but they don't allow the bearer to "cast a spell" so to speak. I can't think of any example in the books right now

Frodo's phial from Galadriel?

[aramis]

Maybe the word is not "powerful", certainly there are other boons with greater impact in game like permanent bonuses (for the duration of the adventure) to some useful skills. I think the storm Bag is percieved as too powerful because it has a very noticeable effect which seems to be out of line with the subtle magic of Middle-earth. It's not so much about game impact (the Bag being overpowered), but about background fitting.

Granted that Sauron could darken the sky when unleashing his armies to go to war, but that kind of power should be out of reach for Heroes (even if the Bag has a single use). Also storms and cold seems related to evil.

I don't think the execution of the storm appearing gradually over time is any more of a 'vulgar' display of magic than, say, Gandalf lighting up a copse of trees from a single lit branch, sources of such magic being from the Istari whether directly casting a spell or some one-use item. In fact, as it's effects are in no way immediate it is far less in my opinion. Considering these points, I'm not in agreement with that part of your statement, but I can appreciate why you may think otherwise as tolerances for such things and opinions aren't an exact science and often can't be fully rationalised in order for us to reach a consensus view.

I agree with you that the in-game effects of this are no greater, and possibly less so, than the other boons which grant bonuses to fairly useful skills for the duration of the adventure and I can understand people feeling that bad weather and storms are related more to the machinations or contrivances of the Enemy than those of the free peoples although I'm personally none too sure about that as I can see how elements such as the weather, fire, and so forth could attempt to be controlled and used to serve either side - good or evil.

Perhaps a more productive discussion, and more in keeping with the spirit of the OP and of more use within a RPG campaign, would be to see if a back story to the Storm Bag could be developed. Was the storm previously 'captured' by Radagast; or even Gandalf/Saruman and given to the Brown Wizard for use at a later date or just for safe keeping? If so, how did this happen? What event in the past could it have related to? Could releasing it again have some unforeseen repercussions? I ask all this because I think that having such an item within the game is more interesting than removing it as it provides the LM with additional elements and hooks to think about and develop further for use within their campaign should they so wish.

Gandalf is, by comparison to the average D&D player-character wizard, not that impressive. Nor is Radagast. Nor even Saruman.
None of them exhibit more than about 7th to 9th level D&D Wizard capabilities (one Dragon article asserts that Gandalf is a 5th level wizard - as each of his spells is 3rd level or less... )

Middle Earth's magic is more ever-present, but also less powerful tactically, but much of it is subtle and lasting. And much of that doesn't really translate well in games, unless the GM makes it clear from the way things happen. (The ever-presence of Magic also explains some of the improbable biomes for the topography.)

C7 has done a MUCH better job of the magic in TOR than did Decipher or ICE. They've kept even the spells pretty subtle. Useful, potent, but subtle.

The magic items aren't spell items - they're typically subtle effects that D&D avoids.

One of the biggest complaints about ICE's MERP was the D&D style flashy-spells and spell-based items.

[Terisonen]

Maybe the word is not "powerful", certainly there are other boons with greater impact in game like permanent bonuses (for the duration of the adventure) to some useful skills. I

[...]

The magic items aren't spell items - they're typically subtle effects that D&D avoids.

One of the biggest complaints about ICE's MERP was the D&D style flashy-spells and spell-based items.

True Indeed. I've played and made played some campaign into Middle Earth with this system. ICE Magic had always made me cringe about many thing, not to talk about the magic missile, like teleportation or fly...

[Rich H]

I was thinking about the origin of the Storm Bag last night, as I think its inclusion is fine and in keeping so I wouldn't remove it, and I had an idea that it was part of a storm that was 'created' by giants in the Misty Mountains; caught by Saruman and given to Radagast for safe keeping and to use if the need arose. Perhaps the great wizard isn't even sure that it will be of use, what with the association of storms to ill-news/tidings/etc but is hoping Radagast will use it anyway and report back to him what happened. Saruman's fall is tied to a desire for power and harnessing things that should be left alone so the apparent success with this is one of the many things that spur him on to greater risks and his eventual demise.

I've put created in inverted-commas above because I'm not sure that's the way to go but the giants were at least present when the bag was used to acquire the storm so they certainly added to it, giving it a hyper-natural quality (for want of a better expression), and maybe their presence was the only reason why a small part of the storm could be caught and kept in this way - ie, they were needed. This therefore also limits the ease in which the Storm Bag can be refilled; such an undertaking is perhaps not even possible given the nature of the circumstances required for success.

Anyway, all the above is really because I like the imagery of Saruman scaling the peaks of the Misty Mountains in the midst of a raging storm while giants play, stones crack, thunder rolls, and lightning flashes all about him. That would make a cool piece of art, I think, and felt a need to explain the circumstances it could occur.

[Glorelendil]

I find "magic" is most interesting and compelling when the viewer (or reader) is left with some doubt as to whether something magical really happened.

So imagine that Radagast's bag is opened, and nothing comes out. Maybe the faint whiff of that gunpowdery smell you get when a rock gets smashed.

But a an hour or two later dark clouds start moving in, and sure enough a storm of some kind comes through, but slightly different than the heroes were expecting.

Coincidence? Or magic?

[Glorelendil]

And if a player asks "what's the bag made of?" and gets a Great Success on Lore, what's the answer?

[Rich H]

I find "magic" is most interesting and compelling when the viewer (or reader) is left with some doubt as to whether something magical really happened.

So imagine that Radagast's bag is opened, and nothing comes out. Maybe the faint whiff of that gunpowdery smell you get when a rock gets smashed.

But a an hour or two later dark clouds start moving in, and sure enough a storm of some kind comes through, but slightly different than the heroes were expecting.

Coincidence? Or magic?

I agree, it also reminds me of the Mage RPG and rules surrounding coincidental and vulgar displays of magic. And Ars Magica was mentioned up-thread which also has similar themes.

I really like the idea of a whiff of a somewhat strange and non-familiar smell; I may pinch what you describe above as the smell of smashed rock could be a clue to giants being involved in some way.

[Rich H]

And if a player asks "what's the bag made of?" and gets a Great Success on Lore, what's the answer?

Tell 'em plastic and it'll cost them 5 pence to take.