Kill that guard before he rises the alarm

[Majestic]

Notice that of all beings in Middle-earth, not counting the followers of Melkor, it's the disciples of Aule who are most likely to fail morally: the Noldor, the dwarves, Sauron, Saruman.

That's really intriguing, Stormcrow. I'd never considered or realized that before.

[Feanor]

Plus Aule and Yavanna is kind of like each others opposites. Her creations needs the earth and trees especially, untouched. But for aules industry and creation to work he needs to cut trees and dig into the earth. So a very interesting conflict . Its talked of in Silmarillion.

[Angelalex242]

And Yavanna's his wife.

Moral of the story: Happy Wife, Happy Life. Don't forget when you're making a new race!

[mirdanis]

Not going to get into the philosophizing, as many others here have done so most eloquently. But in my Tales from Wilderland campaign, when the party members were playing through Of Leaves & Stewed Hobbit, they were faced with the exact challenge that the original poster described: how to get past Orc guards to rescue Dindy Brandybuck, without being discovered and alerting the whole Goblin colony to their presence. The guards were armed and armored, but drunk and carousing. I allowed my party's two archers to Aim to increase their chances of success; they both rolled well, and the guards, who knew when they took guard duty that it might be dangerous, died very quickly with little suffering. I assigned no Shadow points. However, before this scene, in the very same session I believe, the companions had wounded and captured one of the Goblins that tried to kidnap Dindy. The companions attempted to question the Goblin, who gave them somewhat shaky information, and when he became insolent and irritating, one of the archers (a teenaged Woodman) shot him in a fit of anger. I looked at the player, eyebrows raised, and said, "You're just going to shoot an unarmed, helpless captive? Take a Shadow point."

EDIT: And now that I think about it, there was another point in that adventure where the players had an opportunity they didn't take. After observing that the goblins were already quite drunk on shamefully watered-down wine and ale, they broke open the lone cask of brandy - over Dindy's protests - and spiked the drinks to make the goblins even drunker. Once most of the goblins were insensate and Dindy freed, they debated for some time about whether killing unconscious goblins was a Misdeed or not. There were arguments for and against; but in the end they decided that they were there on a rescue mission, not a Goblin-killing mission, and they left while the getting was good.

[Glorelendil]

Theres an encounter design problem here, too. Or maybe not with the OP's scenario specifically but with the "kill the guard silently or all hell will break loose" scenario in general. Outcomes should never be binary, total success or total failure. I'd have degrees of success, based on how long it takes to kill the guard. Between normal ambush rolls, the careless guard having put his horn down, two other orcs being within earshot, etc you can build an encounter which can be smooth or messy, but with a low probability of TPK and no need for assassination house rules.

If the hobbit makes his stealth roll and then one shots the Orc, let him describe it as sneaking up and slitting his throat if he likes. THEN decide about the shadow.

[Rich H]

If the hobbit makes his stealth roll and then one shots the Orc, let him describe it as sneaking up and slitting his throat if he likes. THEN decide about the shadow.

An LM is perfectly entitled to pre-warn the player of the Shadow point gain due to an action being a Misdeed. The player can then change his mind, and the actions of his character, should he so wish. In fact, I think that is the preferred mechanism as outlined in the RAW - although I don't have the book to hand!

Shadow points are an interesting dynamic within the game - they can often be awarded as 'emotional fatigue' from travelling through a blighted area or witnessing terrible events, for instance. Such things are simply a by-product of the risk heroes take stepping out of their homes; the flotsam and jetsam of the dangers of the world that exists beyond hearth and home. However at other times they are applied to a character as a Misdeed, and therefore something caused due to the direct actions and decisions of the said character; often seen as a penalty or 'punishment' of sorts, depending on the viewpoint of the player. Are such things the guilt a character feels? No, I don't think so, otherwise, those without morality would not succumb to such deeds - but then you could say they already have, being amoral in the first place.

I do have a house rule that the more permanent Shadow a character has the more some event and misdeeds are reduced in their impact to the character - ie, the usually attributed Shadow Points are reduced in value. The basic idea being that those on the road to succumbing to the Shadow should have some form of resistance. I've not really had opportunity yo test/develop it though as none of my players' characters have any permanent Shadow.

[Glorelendil]

If the hobbit makes his stealth roll and then one shots the Orc, let him describe it as sneaking up and slitting his throat if he likes. THEN decide about the shadow.

An LM is perfectly entitled to pre-warn the player of the Shadow point gain due to an action being a Misdeed. The player can then change his mind, and the actions of his character, should he so wish. In fact, I think that is the preferred mechanism as outlined in the RAW - although I don't have the book to hand!

Oh, sure. I meant more that it's the player's interpretation/narration of the normal rules that are the basis for whether it's Shadow-worthy, regardless of whether the player is warned.

The exact same dice rolls could produce either:
"I sneak up to within striking distance, then jump out and yell, 'Die, villain!' striking for the nasty goblin's heart"
or
"I sneak up behind him and, clasping one hand over his foul mouth, slit his throat and don't let go of him until his death throws cease. Then I search his pockets for loose change."

We could continue the debate about whether those are really different things ethically, but for those us for whom there is a difference this narration matters.

[Rich H]

Oh, sure. I meant more that it's the player's interpretation/narration of the normal rules that are the basis for whether it's Shadow-worthy, regardless of whether the player is warned.

Ah, gotcha; I misunderstood. Apols.

The exact same dice rolls could produce either:
"I sneak up to within striking distance, then jump out and yell, 'Die, villain!' striking for the nasty goblin's heart"
or
"I sneak up behind him and, clasping one hand over his foul mouth, slit his throat and don't let go of him until his death throws cease. Then I search his pockets for loose change."

We could continue the debate about whether those are really different things ethically, but for those us for whom there is a difference this narration matters.

The last one is the worse, yes?

[Otaku-sempai]

Shadow Points: Upon reflection, Shadow points remind me most nearly of the mechanic of Sanity Points from the Call of Cthulhu game in that they are often less about what a PC has done than about what he has experienced. In this, they differ greatly from Star Wars' Dark Side points.

[Rich H]

Shadow Points: Upon reflection, Shadow points remind me most nearly of the mechanic of Sanity Points from the Call of Cthulhu game in that they are often less about what a PC has done than about what he has experienced. In this, they differ greatly from Star Wars' Dark Side points.

Agreed. I feel my hackles rise whenever someone tries to say they are just like Dark Side points. They simply aren't. I actually try to always present them to my players as something that simply can't be avoided and are certainly not a reflection of them doing anything wrong (with the possible exception of a Misdeed under specific conditions) or playing the game in the wrong way. It's why I describe them as being 'awarded' when I apply them; they aren't 'rewards' but aren't a penalty either.