orc longevity

[windsurfjunkie]

I cannot seem to find the old forum topic on orc longevity so I ask for your input.

Like most of your campaigns as LM or as players, I have a couple of orcs who are central figures in Wilderland. The issue for me is how long can they live or have been around? Are orcs immortal like elves? After all, Morgoth, incapable of much creativity, perverted captured elves in order to create orcs. If Azog or Bolg were not killed, would they be around until they were killed? This does not seem to be entirely clear unless I missed something in Tolkien's writings.

Thanks for your time to answer!

[zedturtle]

You'll receive a variety of answers on this, some more ardent than others, but all interpreting things according to our desires and best guesses.

For myself, I hold orcs to be corrupted elves, and thus immortal in theory. I say theory, because the life of an orc is an ugly thing and might end at any moment. But like all elves, they are bound to the world and will endure while it does.

Of course, this begs the question of what Mandos does when he receives an orcish soul. I imagine its quite a bit of work to 'scrub it clean' for the final song.

So, I'd say make them last as long as you want; if nothing else, a few centuries of life would still be short compared to the true elves but feel quite long to men.

In reference, I'd say that the overheard conversation has a deep hint about the orcish lifespan:

“What d’you say? – if we get a chance, you and me’ll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there’s good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.’
‘Ah!’ said Shagrat. ‘Like old times.”

[Rich H]

For as long as it suits your narrative and story ideas - ie, up until they meet the PCs. They live such violent lives though, no-one really knows for certain.

[Aeglosdir]

From Morgoth's Ring (again) ...

It remains therefore terribly possible there was an Elvish strain in the Orcs. These may then even have been mated with beasts (sterile!) – and later Men. Their life-span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End.
[added later:]
See 'Melkor'. It will there be seen that the wills of Orcs and Balrogs etc. are part of Melkor's power 'dispersed'. Their spirit is one of hate. But hate is non-coöperative (except under direct fear). Hence the rebellions, mutinies, etc. when Morgoth seems far off. Orcs are beasts and Balrogs corrupted Maiar. Also (n.b.) Morgoth not Sauron is the source of Orc-wills. Sauron is just another (if greater) agent. Orcs can rebel against him without losing their own irremediable allegiance to evil (Morgoth). Aulë wanted love. But of course had no thought of dispersing his power. Only Eru can give love and independence. If a finite sub-creator tries to do this he really wants absolute loving obediance, but it turns into robotic servitude and becomes evil.

This addresses the Cirith Ungol orcs looking back at the 'good old days' (not clear if they had witnessed them in person) when Sauron was far off; Aulë vs Melkor; Orcs being irredeemable (or not); and robotic servitude: things that have been touched on in various recent threads.

Tolkien mentions an Elvish strain, but with Men and even beasts added to the mix later. Not immortal, even in theory I think (cf. Aragorn, who had a strong Elvish strain); perhaps longeval in theory but too violent to live for very long anyway so the question is kind of moot.

[Otaku-sempai]

Bolg, son of Azog, would indicate that an Orc can live for a fairly long time if he doesn't meet a violent death first. Bolg had to be at least 142 years old at the time of the Battle of Five Armies and he still seemed to be in his prime.

[Stormcrow]

if he doesn't meet a violent death first.

This is pretty much the defining limit of any orc's lifetime. Immortality or not is irrelevant, because none will live that long.

[StuartJ]

I cannot seem to find the old forum topic on orc longevity so I ask for your input.

Like most of your campaigns as LM or as players, I have a couple of orcs who are central figures in Wilderland. The issue for me is how long can they live or have been around? Are orcs immortal like elves? After all, Morgoth, incapable of much creativity, perverted captured elves in order to create orcs. If Azog or Bolg were not killed, would they be around until they were killed? This does not seem to be entirely clear unless I missed something in Tolkien's writings.

A quick look in this post from Tolwen may have been what you were remembering, which tallies with Otaku-sempai's remark.

Also of interest might be

[Falenthal]

Bolg, son of Azog, would indicate that an Orc can live for a fairly long time if he doesn't meet a violent death first. Bolg had to be at least 142 years old at the time of the Battle of Five Armies and he still seemed to be in his prime.

From all that is said, and considering that there's no right or wrong answer, I consider Great Orcs to have a lifespan of about 250-300 years. Lesser Orcs might have a lifespan more similar to that of men: 80-100 years.
Of course, that's a personal decision, not based on anything canonical.

More than enought so they can be present as a nemesis for a whole campaign.

[Majestic]

The whole "mated with beasts" thing makes me go "Ewww..." (and wonder what sort of nasty monstrosities could be fit to that concept).

[windsurfjunkie]

Gentlemen, thank you. As usual for this forum, you have provided much in-depth knowledge and quotes from primary sources - awesome.
I will use your feedback to decide the course to take for my continuing campaign and the orc characters involved: 23 sessions and counting.

A sample of my latest session storyline is the companions searching the Mountains of Mirkwood as to why there are increasing numbers of Hobgoblins and bats coalescing and who is leading them. This is the basic(trimmed) summary of the main plots and subplots:

It is in fact the result of a direct order to the nazgul in Dol Guldur to target the Woodland realm at this time of 2956. The Ghost of Mirkwood (nazgul) has occupied an ancient elven tower belonging to the time when Thranduil held this portion of Mirkwood. There he has ordered hobgoblins to delve deep into the caves of the mountain to find the remains of the Great Vampire of Mirkwood, for the body had fallen into a chasm millenia ago after its lost duel with Thranduil. After it was retrieved, the nazgul performed a ritual where he drew the remnants of the spirit from the remains and infused its essence into a willing Valdis the Northwoman, sister of Valter the Bloody(plot assist by DoM).With an army of bats, hobgoblins, and a scheming Valdis, the Nazgul plans a takeover of the Woodland realm. This Vampiric regeneration is part of the longer plotline not to be played out immediately in this summary.

The nazgul has found a way to use the companions at this juncture to help this plan: as the companions have recently joined a large elven contingent of scouts in the Mountains of Mirkwood, they discovered that four elven scouts were captured. Upon investigating the capture they discovered a breeding ground in the caves of a hill: a type of beast they have never encountered (young fell beasts that are the precursors to the type ridden by the time of the Lord of the Rings). After slaying the small brood, they found many caves filled with Hobgoblins who were in charge of feeding the Fell beasts(one was of great stature and a descendant of First Age Hobgoblins designed by Melkor himself); they also found the remains of elves. However, one elf seemed to be missing from the search of the dead elves' possessions, etc.

Searching further, they came to the ancient abandoned elven tower in Mirkwood that now housed the enemy.
To their surprise, the tower was virtually unprotected, and easily entered. After discovering a bat cavern in caverns below it, they found in the top floor the remaining elf prisoner. She was severely tortured and scarred, but remained alive. The whole rescue seemed contrived to the companions as the rescue seemed all too easy. Despite the Insight rolls of the companions, she was half-conscious and was in need of healing; nothing else seemed sinister - it was definitely her.

They rescued her and brought her back to Thranduil's Halls after a harrowing retreat. Back in Thranduil's Halls she recovered slowly, but one day alarms rose in the realm. Many elves were dying and it seemed to be the result of drinking water from the wellsprings within the underground halls. They soon asked for the whereabouts of the rescued elf, and one passing elf said she was seen taking the path to a special grove with a waterfall ouside.
Coming to the grove they discovered her at the waterfall's edge, ready to throw herself over the cliff. She told them she has just awoke from a bad dream, and realized what she had done. The nazgul had put a dark spell on her. She could not live with herself for what she had done.

Stalling her at the edge, the companions got close enough, despite her protestations, and one of them (a love-interest now) lunged after her and caught her hand but was still slipping over the edge. It took all companions to grasp and hold them and pull them back from the brink.

She now recovers in Thranduil's care, but 48 elves died in the halls from the poisoning of the toxic herbs she collected in the realm while under the spell of the Nazgul and then put into the drinking well - a catastrophe.
A trip back to the Mountains of Mirkwood is planned...for revenge.

All the best in your games! Can't wait for Rohan!