DnD® comes to Middle-earth®.

[aramis]

As far as I'm aware, it would allow them to use some additional classes/subclasses, backgrounds, and feats. (And maybe some spells?) I don't believe there's any rules difference, just character options.

There are a LOT of rules options in the DMG which are not in the SRD. An individual license from WOTC would allow those, and a compatibility mark including the 5E Ampersand-dragon. Either of which is worth a bit of cash.

Likewise, it would benefit WOTC... getting a licensed-by-Tolkien-Enterprises product out with the 5E ampersand-dragon would likely help sales overall, especially if it's the "Requires the 5th Edition Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide" type. Plus, direct royalties.

But there are good reasons not to go that route. One is that a standalone book generally sells better than a supplement. Another is that of additional approvals, and additional costs and royalties. And the restrictions that WOTC might impose on rules changes.

Jon's said it's not licensed by WotC... which implies it's most likely just a setting book with some new classes.

As for the SRD, the SRD was announced to several other companies months before it was made public. It's not impossible that C7 had the SRD before the public.

[Glorelendil]

One is that a standalone book generally sells better than a supplement.

Opinion or demonstrable fact?

EDIT: That was an overly terse answer from my phone. I'm sure that, for any game system, core rule books sell more than supplements. But I'm sure that Curse of Strahd (latest 5e supplement) has sold more copies than the vast majority of standalone RPGs.

So how about a supplement for the best-selling (by far) RPG, vs. standalone rules for a new game with no player base that happens to be derived from the best-selling one?

If I were investing I would be more likely to back the former.

[Beran]

What's the problem with just saying "Use the PHB"?

Because there will be people that don't want to buy the PHB as well.

[Otaku-sempai]

Jon's said it's not licensed by WotC... which implies it's most likely just a setting book with some new classes.

Have you stated that correctly? Because we are discussing a product being produced by Cubicle 7 and Sophisticated Games, so of course WotC would not be a licensee. If anything the company would be the licensor.

I do see that some games such as The Slayers D20, produced under the OGL, have required the use of the D&D Core Rules books, so you may have a point. On the other hand, other OGL games such as Mutants & Masterminds stand completely apart from D&D and are not in any way setting books for D&D.

[Cawdorthane]

Not really adding to the conversation, but I love this quote.

We know that C7 will do the best job they can do, when they can do it, no more and no less....

I whole heartily agree with this statement.

[/quote]

Thanks Adhemar, my point simply is that none of us presently know what "shade of blue" C7's ME 5e will be. C7 are sensibly keeping their cards close to their chest. And so this discussion is pure speculation, to the effect of maybe C7's ME 5e will be almost as blue as the "Blue Stone of Galvestone" or (possibly) less blue than the eyes of the Spanish Infanta...

Having patience and faith in C7's invariable high standard of production & content is the best way forward. I would much rather C7 delayed publication until they were satisfied that they had an excellent product rather than them sticking to arbitrary deadlines. Much as we all like, me included, 'instant gratification'!

cheers
Mark

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Some time in the past few months, I think in this thread, Jon commented that this is not a licensed product and is being made using the open content, so there would be a fair amount in the PHB not a part of that. That would say to me that any 5th Ed content they use would have to be reprinted in the new book.

I'm not following that argument. What's the problem with just saying "Use the PHB"? Why would they have to reprint the parts they're allowed to use, because they're not allowed to reprint the other parts? And even if they wanted to, couldn't they just provide the link to the SRD?

From the OGL:

7. Use of Product Identity: You agree not to Use any Product Identity,
including as an indication as to compatibility, except as expressly licensed
in another, independent Agreement with the owner of each element of
that Product Identity. You agree not to indicate compatibility or co-adaptability
with any Trademark or Registered Trademark in conjunction with a work
containing Open Game Content except as expressly licensed in another,
independent Agreement with the owner of such Trademark or Registered
Trademark. The use of any Product Identity in Open Game Content does
not constitute a challenge to the ownership of that Product Identity. The
owner of any Product Identity used in Open Game Content shall retain all
rights, title and interest in and to that Product Identity.

Product Identity includes Dungeons & Dragons, D&D, Player’s Handbook, Dungeon Master, Monster Manual, and a bunch of other stuff. So without a separate agreement with WotC, in addition to the OGL, these cannot be used in their product. Not sure what that extra agreement would require or cost, if anything, but without it there is no referring to the PHB or DMG or MM. So anything they use from the SRD would have to be reprinted in the ME books. And going just by memory and not digging up his comments about this, I am pretty sure Jon said this will only use the OGL/SRD and they do not have any extra deals with WotC.

[aramis]

Jon's said it's not licensed by WotC... which implies it's most likely just a setting book with some new classes.

Have you stated that correctly? Because we are discussing a product being produced by Cubicle 7 and Sophisticated Games, so of course WotC would not be a licensee. If anything the company would be the licensor.

I do see that some games such as The Slayers D20, produced under the OGL, have required the use of the D&D Core Rules books, so you may have a point. On the other hand, other OGL games such as Mutants & Masterminds stand completely apart from D&D and are not in any way setting books for D&D.

Wizards has made it clear they aren't going after people for new classes, etc.

There have been a bunch of adventures,, a couple classes, and a setting book all released pre-SRD based upon "5e-ing" the d20 SRD, and minimal rules, and all have indicated compatibility without the use of the registered trademarks. (In the US, unregistered trademarks are allowed, but hard to defend. An WOTC has no urge to revoke the OGL in court, so it has to be pretty blatant to get dinged.)

I did not buy them; I don't buy 3rd party stuff much (if at all) anymore; I run D&D mostly in organized play

[Rich H]

Right, you are saying that if you aren't a 5E player your are not the target audience...even if you are a ME fan, like myself. Which is kind of myopic if you ask me; if I have to buy the PHB and DMG to run 5E ME then I won't be buying the C7 product.

It depends on how many ME RPers they think are out there that don't play D&D or don't already play TOR. I strongly suspect the number is pretty small so they won't be the target audience. Fans of ME who play 5e are the largest market they are aiming this new product (line) at so it will be designed for them to use easily and to create the least amount 'anger' by rehashing/printing rules this group of gamers already have. I also doubt it will depart too much from those rules, at least with the first book, as many D&D players just want to play D&D and too much of a departure will turn many off the game. Personally, I really hope it is a standalone book that doesn't require the PHB/DMG because then I would pick up a copy as well, but we're not the target audience here. I suspect it will be something similar to the Thule Campaign Setting but will likely include DM related material as well.

Besides if they are true fans they won't complain about a duplication of rules...look at all the people who have bought all 3 FFG Star Wars games.

And FFG has taken a hit on sales on this and more importantly their reputation for the way they treat customers. RPG companies are a business, true, but they've been seen in many quarters as taking the piss (and money) out of those into the Star Wars RPG for what they did with the 'core' books of the 3 lines.

Beran and Otaku: would you buy ME5e either way?

Assuming that they make the rules fit the world properly and that I don't have shell out extra for the PHB and DMG to run it. Sure I would...

In answer to Glorelendil, you actually meant to say 'no' then. Sorry, couldn't resist!

[Beran]

And FFG has taken a hit on sales on this and more importantly their reputation for the way they treat customers. RPG companies are a business, true, but they've been seen in many quarters as taking the piss (and money) out of those into the Star Wars RPG for what they did with the 'core' books of the 3 lines.

Sure people have complained and some probably have stayed away, but not too many if the number of FFG Star Wars games that are currently being run online is any indication. FFG is still making a whack load of money with their current plan. I don't see any difference happening in this case.

"I also doubt it will depart too much from those rules, at least with the first book, as many D&D players just want to play D&D and too much of a departure will turn many off the game."

Then why wouldn't they just stay with vanilla D&D?

[Glorelendil]

Then why wouldn't they just stay with vanilla D&D?

Because they all love Peter Jackson and want to play D&D in Middle Earth. The closer to vanilla that is, the more likely they are to play it.