Repelling charges

[Otaku-sempai]

And, as has been discussed in another thread, you can't give a weapon a Called Shot of a forced Knockback because it makes it far to easy to lock down a powerful adversary, preventing it from ever attacking. Game breaking mechanic. So I guess you could say "When this weapon is used in a charge it has a new, unique Called Shot..." but that feels too contrived/fiddly for TOR.

That door for the 'forced knockback' was already opened with smash-attack of Rine, the Queen of Castle Hill (see Rivendell) and it's called-shot effect of Knockdown:

Knockdown: the target has been knocked down by a blow. A character who is knocked down cannot choose to be 'knocked back' to lessen the impact of the blow. A character who has been knocked down cannot change stance and will spend his next round recovering his fighting position, unable to take an further action that turn.

Honestly, a knockdown as a called shot of a charge seems perfectly reasonable and I am not convinced that it is game-breaking.

[Glorelendil]

And, as has been discussed in another thread, you can't give a weapon a Called Shot of a forced Knockback because it makes it far to easy to lock down a powerful adversary, preventing it from ever attacking. Game breaking mechanic. So I guess you could say "When this weapon is used in a charge it has a new, unique Called Shot..." but that feels too contrived/fiddly for TOR.

That door for the 'forced knockback' was already opened with smash-attack of Rine, the Queen of Castle Hill (see Rivendell) and it's called-shot effect of Knockdown:

Knockdown: the target has been knocked down by a blow. A character who is knocked down cannot choose to be 'knocked back' to lessen the impact of the blow. A character who has been knocked down cannot change stance and will spend his next round recovering his fighting position, unable to take an further action that turn.

Honestly, a knockdown as a called shot of a charge seems perfectly reasonable and I am not convinced that it is game-breaking.

Again, it's not OP if a solo NPC uses it against a group of Heroes. It's OP if a group of Heroes is using it against a solo NPC.

We've gone over this (and over this) but one or two Heroes just chaining a Knockback effect could easily keep a an adversary, regardless of AL, effectively unable to do anything for an entire fight. The Knockback effect you are a proponent of is irresistible: it's effectiveness is based solely on the dice roll of the attacker. Which means it's equally effective against a Snaga Tracker as it is against The Witch King. So you may as well never have solo Adversaries, no matter how powerful. If that's not game-breaking OP I don't know what is.

[Otaku-sempai]

Again, it's not OP if a solo NPC uses it against a group of Heroes. It's OP if a group of Heroes is using it against a solo NPC.

Okay, but ganging up on a solo hero is the kind of tactic that is inherently unfair but expected of bad guys. Try not to get into that situation and learn to retreat if you get the chance.

We've gone over this (and over this) but one or two Heroes just chaining a Knockback effect could easily keep a an adversary, regardless of AL, effectively unable to do anything for an entire fight. The Knockback effect you are a proponent of is irresistible: it's effectiveness is based solely on the dice roll of the attacker. Which means it's equally effective against a Snaga Tracker as it is against The Witch King. So you may as well never have solo Adversaries, no matter how powerful. If that's not game-breaking OP I don't know what is.

There are very few attacks associated with Knockdown (only one so far officially?*) And maybe that is for the best as it can be pretty devastating. Most heavy weapons instead have Break shield if they have a called shot at all. However, a called shot is not guaranteed to succeed every time it is attempted. And you point out yourself that a hero who is knocked down is likely to have teammates coming to his aid. I have to wonder if your objection would still be as strong if there was a weapon in RAW that allowed a hero to achieve the same effect.

Now, if you are knocked down as part of a one-on-one mounted contest then you are probably going to be able to recover your footing before a mounted opponent can return for another attack. And, depending on the rules of the contest, your adversary may himself have to dismount in order to continue the fight, allowing you even more time to recover.

* I had forgotten about the Children of Shelob--Sarqin, Tauler and Tyulqin--who also have Knockdown as a called shot.

[Glorelendil]

I think we're talking past each other again. I am *only* concerned about Heroes having an at-will, no-saving-throw Knockdown to use against Adversaries.

Adversaries using it against heroes is fine.

[Falenthal]

I am *only* concerned about Heroes having an at-will, no-saving-throw Knockdown to use against Adversaries.

That's my concern: Adversaries only use Called Shots when a hero rolls an Eye, however (un)useful their Called Shots might be under certain circumstances. The heroe's and adverarie's Called Shots cannot be paralleled, I think.

[Otaku-sempai]

I think we're talking past each other again. I am *only* concerned about Heroes having an at-will, no-saving-throw Knockdown to use against Adversaries.

Adversaries using it against heroes is fine.

Okay, I see what you're getting at. I had forgotten about the way a called shot works for Adversaries. That's a result of most of my knowledge of the game being theoretical rather than practical. The rule is a bit too mechanical for my taste, maybe that's why it wasn't sticking in my memory.

Knockdown isn't readily available as a called-shot effect for any weapon commonly available to player characters. And it probably wouldn't apply for any weapon that more than one hero is likely to be wielding. I still don't see it easily becoming much of a problem. I can see it being applied to a character being bowled over by a charging mount, but if you think that it should not apply to opponents, for example, more than twice the size of a Man then house-rule appropriately.

[Glorelendil]

I think we're talking past each other again. I am *only* concerned about Heroes having an at-will, no-saving-throw Knockdown to use against Adversaries.

Adversaries using it against heroes is fine.

Okay, I see what you're getting at. I had forgotten about the way a called shot works for Adversaries. That's a result of most of my knowledge of the game being theoretical rather than practical. The rule is a bit too mechanical for my taste, maybe that's why it wasn't sticking in my memory.

I think Falenthal muddied the waters with the reference to the Called Shot mechanic for adversaries. Although that makes it even less effective for adversaries, that's not the gist of it. The core problem occurs when it's many-vs-one, and the side with "many" has an at-will Knockdown effect. And in RPGs many-vs-one almost always occurs as many heroes, one strong adversary.

But, yes, in the unlikely event that it were many Adversaries against one Hero a Knockdown would not be problematic because of the Called Shot rule.

Knockdown isn't readily available as a called-shot effect for any weapon commonly available to player characters. And it probably wouldn't apply for any weapon that more than one hero is likely to be wielding. I still don't see it easily becoming much of a problem. I can see it being applied to a character being bowled over by a charging mount, but if you think that it should not apply to opponents, for example, more than twice the size of a Man then house-rule appropriately.

Well, if it were available at *all* then it would be hugely tempting to get all powergamey and have a couple of them in the party. So I really don't think it should ever be tied to a weapon type.

But I'd be fine with creating a mechanic or rule (not a specific weapon) that lets you use Knockdown when charging. That would be hard to powergame.

[Otaku-sempai]

Well, if it were available at *all* then it would be hugely tempting to get all powergamey and have a couple of them in the party. So I really don't think it should ever be tied to a weapon type.

Fair enough. For something like our hypothetical maul or great club, we can just assign it a called shot of Break shield (or none). Knockdown just seemed like an interesting alternative to set such a weapon apart. Maybe it does work better for more unique attacks such as the Troll-queen's smash or a dragon's tail-swipe (the Forest Dragon was given a prehensile tail with a constricting, crushing attack instead).

But I'd be fine with creating a mechanic or rule (not a specific weapon) that lets you use Knockdown when charging. That would be hard to powergame.

I agree.

[Rich H]

Fair enough. For something like our hypothetical maul or great club, we can just assign it a called shot of Break shield (or none). Knockdown just seemed like an interesting alternative to set such a weapon apart.

Create a new Called Shot of 'Staggered' and apply a different mechanic rather than knocked down; maybe a slightly tempered version of just halving an individual's Parry Bonus or something?

[Glorelendil]

Yeah, I'd love to see a new Called Shot mechanic unique to hammers.

I'd also be ok with some weapons causing a knockdown on a failed Protection test, instead of causing a Wound. That wouldn't count as at-will.