Erebor - The Lonely Mountain

[Wbweather]

Quick glance looks amazing!

[Dunkelbrink]

Erebor - another great achievement from Cubicle 7!

After a first read through I have to say there is a lot of good stuff here (the descriptions of Erebor and Dale, chapter on Dragons, grudges etc).

A few things stand out like unnecessary stains though. The Undertaking "Study with a Master craftsman" has exactly the same benefit as "Study the Stonework of Beinharn" (half cost for next Craft level). Since they are both undertakings based in Erebor/dale the duplicate is unfortunate and I hope they change the latter before going to print (maybe changing to Lore or Insight or affecting Craft in some other way).

The Venomed quality on weapons is also strange. Adversaries are not poisoned. If they're Wounded they're out of the fight, unless the possess Great size trait. A poisoned hero counts as wounded, that's the only effect of poison. So an adversary that is hit by an attack with the poison weapon is "auto-killed", and a great size opponent is "auto-wounded", making the Venomed quality by far the mightiest of all. This is just silly. I believe that poison should stay as an adversary ability, or the rules for poison needs to be elaborated on.

The other thing is a bit more worrying. The book puts emphasis on dwarf smithing which is cool, but fells like it could destroy balance. The Undertaking Dwarven-Smithing only requires a high Craft and a certain trait, no VIrtue (like Artificer in Rivendell). Suddenly you can get a powerful effect just from a trait, and smith-craft at once feels like a trait with more power than other traits (the thing about traits being that they should not be powerful, or at least equally powerful). This is a new take on balance. I am also worried about the dwarf made weapons and armour you can buy in Dale for a penny (3-10 Treasure): the undertaking Commission a smith of anvil way. The benefit is huge: a re-roll of a success die on attacks and one on protection rolls for armour. Of course every hero is going to have these weapons and armour, taking away the value of cultural rewards and magical weapons. Why bother when you can buy a super weapon/armour for just a few treasure or make it yourself with a decent craft value? Maybe I am wrong but it feels these things destroy the balance in a otherwise very balanced game. What do other people fell about this?

Just a few thoughts, the rest of the book looks amazing!

[Glorelendil]

The other thing is a bit more worrying. The book puts emphasis on dwarf smithing which is cool, but fells like it could destroy balance. The Undertaking Dwarven-Smithing only requires a high Craft and a certain trait, no VIrtue (like Artificer in Rivendell). Suddenly you can get a powerful effect just from a trait, and smith-craft at once feels like a trait with more power than other traits (the thing about traits being that they should not be powerful, or at least equally powerful). This is a new take on balance. I am also worried about the dwarf made weapons and armour you can buy in Dale for a penny (3-10 Treasure): the undertaking Commission a smith of anvil way. The benefit is huge: a re-roll of a success die on attacks and one on protection rolls for armour. Of course every hero is going to have these weapons and armour, taking away the value of cultural rewards and magical weapons. Why bother when you can buy a super weapon/armour for just a few treasure or make it yourself with a decent craft value? Maybe I am wrong but it feels these things destroy the balance in a otherwise very balanced game. What do other people fell about this?

I was worried some about this, too. And I have a few nits with implementation (i.e., getting Great Materials without an Adventure, Persuade rolls too easy, etc.). But overall I think that because famous arms & armour you find in treasure troves are still significantly better (and you presumably can't combine the enchantments), so these new options...although they depend far less on luck...are not as unbalancing.

An unanswered question, though, is whether you can combine them with cultural weapons and/or qualities.

[zedturtle]

Crafting an item requires multiple (quite a few, really) Undertakings, and produces a single item that isn't quite as a good as a really good Famous Weapon or Armour.

As for cultural properties, it seems relatively certain that this is a new item being made, and thus would not stack with cultural rewards. The items bought at Anvil Way are good, but are virtually identical to increasing your Weapon Skill (perhaps at a steep discount). And there's nothing saying a LM can't have the smith require some sort of special service (i.e. an adventure) in order to get the benefit.

[Stormcrow]

"Though the army of Elves, Men, Dwarves and, at the last, Eagles, was victorious," (p. 8)

There were, of course, five armies, and the Eagles weren't one of them; they were an air force.

"So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side were the Goblins and the Wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves."

[Borri]

As for cultural properties, it seems relatively certain that this is a new item being made, and thus would not stack with cultural rewards.

Why not? You can also add qualities to cultural properties due improvement. I see no reasen why a smith can add a new quality like 'keen', 'fell' oder 'grievous' to a weapon but can't add an improved grip or change the balance of a weapon for better handling.

[Dunkelbrink]

Crafting an item requires multiple (quite a few, really) Undertakings, and produces a single item that isn't quite as a good as a really good Famous Weapon or Armour.

I was worried some about this, too. And I have a few nits with implementation (i.e., getting Great Materials without an Adventure, Persuade rolls too easy, etc.). But overall I think that because famous arms & armour you find in treasure troves are still significantly better (and you presumably can't combine the enchantments), so these new options...although they depend far less on luck...are not as unbalancing.

Ok, fair enough, but "normal weapons" are not going to exist as soon as the heroes have played an adventure or two - it's right off to Anvil's way (a few voices here on the forums have said that there are not enough things to spend their treasure on). Which is a bit sad imo, I liked that TOR was a game where not everyone goes around carrying a special weapon.

But Venomed! What do you rules experts say about this strange new rule? The rules clearly states:
Adventurers can be Poisoned in several ways: they could
be bitten by a giant Spider, hit by an Orcish broad-bladed
sword, or end up eating venison hunted in the wrong part
of Mirkwood.
A Poisoned character is considered to be Wounded. Thus,
if an already Poisoned character is Wounded once, he falls
unconscious as if Wounded twice (likewise, a Wounded
character falls unconscious when Poisoned).

There are no rules about Adversaries being poisoned so how would Venomed work? If you apply the rules for adventurers it is an auto-wound (counts as wounded), i.e. the adversary is put out of combat (or wounded if great size). Clearly broken.

[Rich H]

Like you say, if you apply the rules for PCs being Poisoned to adversaries then on any damage dealing attack they will be Wounded - which largely means an instant kill. This doesn't feel right to me either.

Personally, until we get an official response, I'd go with the creature being Wearied.

[Glorelendil]

Clearly broken.

C7 is a tiny company and we all know the names and faces of the people in it, and they all actively participate in these forums. So gratuitous stuff like the above reads like a disparagement flung at a friend, or at least flung at the hard work of a friend. There are so many ways to express that sentiment that wouldn't be denigrating.

[Rich H]

As for cultural properties, it seems relatively certain that this is a new item being made, and thus would not stack with cultural rewards.

Why not? You can also add qualities to cultural properties due improvement. I see no reasen why a smith can add a new quality like 'keen', 'fell' oder 'grievous' to a weapon but can't add an improved grip or change the balance of a weapon for better handling.

I personally agree with Zed here as Enchanted Qualities are separate to Cutural Rewards and taking the following references from Erebor (p33) and Rivendell (p96-7) respectively would appear to support this assertion:

"The smith can choose one of the following Enchanted Qualities to add to the newly-forged artefact..."

"When you create a magical piece of war gear for your campaign, pick a selection of special characteristics,
choosing among those listed on page 115 of The One Ring and the new Enchanted Qualities described in this book, starting overleaf. (It is not possible to attribute a Cultural Reward to a magical item)."

So, the item is newly-forged (first quote) and if it it isn't possible to add Cultural Reward qualities to a magical item (second quote) then I think it'd be logical to infer that the reverse is also true that the Enchanted Qualities, that make an item magical, cannot be added to a Cultural Reward. Therefore PCs/players have to make the choice of what kind of enhancements they want for their weapons but cannot stack them all, without restrictions, to create some super weapon; there are some interesting choices still to be made.

Least that's the way I read it.