Might of the Firstborn - Can you spend Hope on the roll?

[Lara Redleaf]

I had assumed that you could, and that like other Valour tests it used Heart as its Attribute. That's the one that makes the most sense. But unless I missed it, the book doesn't outright say you can, so I wanted to double check what the developers thought.

Thanks!

[Kullervo]

I'm not sure why you wouldn't - I mean it's a Valour Roll, I think it should be treated as such. It certainly doesn't mention anything that can suggest anything to the contrary. Just my take on it though! I'm only a player, not even a LM.

[Earendil]

Yeah, it's a Valour roll and as far as I know you can always spend Hope on those, unless specified otherwise.

(I am an LM but that doesn't necessarily mean I know what I'm talking about!)

[zedturtle]

Finally at home, in front of a real keyboard. Page 84 of the rulebook says thusly:

Whenever dice are rolled, players may choose to spend
a point of Hope to gain a bonus to the result equal to the
rating of the most appropriate Attribute. This is called an
Attribute bonus.

Dice are being rolled, so Hope may be spent. (IMHO)

[Rich H]

Agree with everyone else, there's no issue spending Hope on this test. There are other references in the books that don't say explicitly that Hope can be used when describing a Valour test but they don't need to; page 102 of the revised book describes the rule to be applied. The only time I wouldn't apply it is if an exception based mechanic stated otherwise or the charater in question was Daunted.

[Indur Dawndeath]

I agree that Hope can be spend, but I also understand the reason why it's questioned.
Why would anyone spend a Hope to fail, if a Hope can be spend to succeed.
In reality this ability has the power to drain all Hope from the High elf, or not be used ever.

Cheers

[zedturtle]

Well, there are times that you'll end up losing Hope even when you've succeeded (since you rolled an Eye) or losing Hope on a failure (when it's too far away for spending Hope to make any difference). You might even end up down by two points of Hope (a close roll with the Eye showing, spend one point of Hope to succeed, lose one point of Hope for the Eye).

You're right, it's a dangerous ability for High Elves. But it's also a powerful denial ability that can change a battle that no one else can do.

Edit: Per Rich's suggestion, terminology changed for clarity.

[Rich H]

Why would anyone spend a Hope to fail, if a Hope can be spend to succeed.

You never spend Hope to fail, under what conditions do you think that occurs? Even if the Valour roll produced an EYE result you'd only ever spend Hope to turn the total rolled into a success and deny the adversary it's ability and (potentially) drain it of some Hate as well (if the roll was a great or extraordinary success). You'd lose a further point of Hope due to the EYE result but that isn't spending Hope; spending is the player making a choice to use their Hope resource, the rulebook specifically states lose in situations where there is no player choice. The distinction may not seem important, but considering the amount of posts/threads we get asking for clarification on rules within the book I think it's important to be clear and accurate as much as possible. Apologies if it seems I'm engaging in pedantry; your post confused me a little and I'd consider myself a bit of a TOR rules expert for the most part!

[Indur Dawndeath]

Why would anyone spend a Hope to fail, if a Hope can be spend to succeed.

You never spend Hope to fail, under what conditions do you think that occurs? Even if the Valour roll produced an EYE result you'd only ever spend Hope to turn the total rolled into a success and deny the adversary it's ability and (potentially) drain it of some Hate as well (if the roll was a great or extraordinary success). You'd lose a further point of Hope due to the EYE result but that isn't spending Hope; spending is the player making a choice to use their Hope resource, the rulebook specifically states lose in situations where there is no player choice. The distinction may not seem important, but considering the amount of posts/threads we get asking for clarification on rules within the book I think it's important to be clear and accurate as much as possible. Apologies if it seems I'm engaging in pedantry; your post confused me a little and I'd consider myself a bit of a TOR rules expert for the most part!

I undrestand what you are saying, so I'll rephrase: who would want to lose a point of Hope, if spending one will make you succeed. But after succeeding, you continue to have the option to use the ability next round.
This situation will probably happen pretty often if the ability is used, so potentially many Hope points can be spend in a single fight. Even fights where the compnions would have won anyway. Without having to spend Hope.
I'd say it is a very tempting ability. And ofcourse powerfull

[Rich H]

I undrestand what you are saying, so I'll rephrase: who would want to lose a point of Hope, if spending one will make you succeed. But after succeeding, you continue to have the option to use the ability next round.

Because if an EYE is rolled you've lost the point no matter what; if spending a Hope point helps you succeed, and its worthy of a great or extraordinary success, then its certainly worth doing as that spends the adversary's Hate as well. Where the results isn't a great/extraordinary success then it may still be worth it in certain circumstances - eg, the use of the enemy's ability could potentially slay or badly hurt one of your companions, etc.

This situation will probably happen pretty often if the ability is used, so potentially many Hope points can be spend in a single fight.

1 in 12. There has to be some balancing factor to what is basically a free to use, and use as many times as you wish, ability.

Even fights where the compnions would have won anyway. Without having to spend Hope. I'd say it is a very tempting ability. And ofcourse powerfull

Best to only use it where the company are hard pressed and in a particularly dangerous battle - my players don't have difficulty identify such encounters. Stiff Neck of the Dwarves is another powerful ability that has risk associated with it; I quite like such things as they appear powerful but if not managed prudently can lead to unforeseen repurcussions.