Mounted Archery

[Deadmanwalking]

The issue with using a bow on horseback (that Horse Archery fixes) is that of Stance. Normally, you must be in Rearward to use a Bow and either Forward or Open Stance to fight while mounted.

So anyone can fire an opening volley with a bow from horseback (since that's pre-Stance), but not throughout the rest of the battle (since you're in the wrong Stance).

As for opening volley + charge, I don't see why you couldn't do both, though you'll only get one opening volley rather than one per charge due to the order of combat phases (ie: once you're charging, you're in the next phase and can't opening volley any more).

[zedturtle]

I read the rules as: Archery on horseback is exactly the same as on foot, except the limit of sucess dice is equal to ranks in athletics...
Regarding mounted archery tactics, I'd do it another way. Allow a number of opening volleys based on a Battle test. One extra per success
Cheers

I like this solution, and would only add that we should bear in mind that there might be some times in which cavalry is in marginal situation, where even the best tactics (i.e. high Battle rolls) might only allow a single moment before close combat is joined.

[Falenthal]

The issue with using a bow on horseback (that Horse Archery fixes) is that of Stance. Normally, you must be in Rearward to use a Bow and either Forward or Open Stance to fight while mounted.

So anyone can fire an opening volley with a bow from horseback (since that's pre-Stance), but not throughout the rest of the battle (since you're in the wrong Stance).

As for opening volley + charge, I don't see why you couldn't do both, though you'll only get one opening volley rather than one per charge due to the order of combat phases (ie: once you're charging, you're in the next phase and can't opening volley any more).

I think that's exactly what RAW allows and forbids, after reading again through the rules and comments.

So, a character who wants to be a mounted archer can only fire his bow during the Opening Volleys and never more for the rest of the combat.
Charges are only done with melee weapons.
Our Mounted Archer could change to a melee weapon and do a Charge.
If his comrades want to try the Wheel and Charge maneuver, he must join them and succeed at the Riding tests, like everyone else. There's no chance for him to use his bow here (Not even if he has the Horseback Archery Virtue?).
Once close combat is joined, if he wants to use his bow further, he'll have to dismount first.
Only if he's a rohirrim, he can take the Horseback Archery Virtue that allows him to fight with the bow without dismounting, and still get the benefits of higher TNs to impact him, and reduced Armour Encumbrance.

Have I missed or missundertood something from the RAW?

[Falenthal]

Horse-archery
You are allowed to use a bow from horseback from any combat stance, as if it were a close combat weapon. Additionally, the number of Success dice rolled on your ranged attacks using a bow are not limited by your Athletics score (see Riding in Combat, page 135).

In my previous post, I asked if there might be a chance for a rohirrim with the Horse-archery Virtue to somehow attack during the Wheel and Charge maneuver with his bow, instead of using a melee weapon. Maybe at the same time that the onfoot soldiers do fire their own volleys.

The Virtue, if we take it literally, says that the bow might be used as a close combat weapon from any combat stance. Due to the fact that Charges and Wheel and Charges still don't allow to choose a Stance, I'd say that RAW doesn't allow the bow to be used while Charging, at any moment. Only for Opening Volleys and, if the rider has the Horse-archery Virtue, during Close Quarters Combat.

[Falenthal]

Also, secondary question--does Horse Archery then allow you to use it on a charge, with the charge bonus?

Although by my read of the rules bows can't be used together with the Charge maneuver, even if they could, I would apply the Damage bonus from Charge only to melee weapons.

Would seem like there are some common sense limits on the charge bonus that aren't really stated--surely you wouldn't get one using a dagger?

Maybe you could. Describe it as the horse himself hitting the enemy with his side, or riding so close to the adversary that he has to jump out of your way. Remember that Endurance lose is not only wounds and blood. It's also forcing the enemy to spend his energy trying to avoid your attacks, etc.

[Falenthal]

So, a character who wants to be a mounted archer can fire his bow during the Opening Volleys.
Charges are only done with melee weapons. -->>> EDIT: I can't seem to find anywhere that the RAW says that. In fact, it only says: "If the Riding test is successful, the rider immediately makes an attack roll upon a target of his choice." As during the Charge step no Stances are chosen, this attack could be a Bow attack as far as I understand. The RAW also doesn't say anywhere that the Damage bonus is only applied to melee attacks. As per the RAW reads, a Bow attack would also benefit from the Endurance Damage bonus.
Our Mounted Archer could use his Bow during the Charge.
If his comrades want to try the Wheel and Charge maneuver, he must join them and succeed at the Riding tests, like everyone else. And he's still able to use his bow here (Question: Would this Bow attack be resolved with the volleys from the footmen, or with the rest of the Charge attacks? As per RAW, I'd solve it with the Charges. The footman volleys might be done while the horsemen are maneuvering their mounts, for example).
Once close combat is joined, and Stances are chosen, if he wants to use his bow further, he'll have to dismount first.
Only if he's a rohirrim, he can take the Horseback Archery Virtue that allows him to fight with the bow without dismounting, and still get the benefits of higher TNs to impact him, and reduced Armour Encumbrance.

I'm getting nuts over this!!!

Edited with a new opinion, that's changing with every re-read I make of the rules.

Might change again in the next 10 minutes...

[Indur Dawndeath]

The stance limitation only applies to close combat.
Ranged combat is not mentioned, and should therefore not be affected. i.e. no different from on foot, except the limit to success dice.

I've seen a rider charge armed with a bow, i'd say that the force of the impact is very much increased. I would allow a horse archer to use his bow in a charge with the added bonus.

Cheers

[Dunheved]

This is really quite tricky.

The RAW says: TOR book page 125 - "bows... can be used in sieges, from horseback, in dense woodland or in the open field" also " warriors bearing bows usually carry another weapon to draw when the enemy gets closer" This suggests to me that I don't expect to see bows used in a Charge.

I also can't see any missile weapons being fired into a melee where the risk of friendly-fire casualties is significant because a cavalry melee seems to be a lot more mobile and fluid with targets and friends changing relative positions many times.

However, in The Two Towers, Chapter 3 The Uruk Hai, we do have a single instance of bows used from horseback. The Rohirrim approach; fire at retreating Orcs (those carrying Merry & Pippin ) and then ride away out of range of the orc bowmen. This strategy was repeated several times as the orcs ran. So is this in effect an extended version of Opening Volleys exclusive to Rohirrim Horse Archers? Should a HorseArcher be allowed extra volleys as long as they can remain in a rearward stance and not attacked by an adversary?

The Horse Archery virtue in HLoR simply permits you to fire a bow while on a horse: just as you would fire a bow while on foot in normal combat. Or am I reading this wrong?

So I guess that if I had to LM this I'd have to use RAW, but I'd want some narrative from a Rohirrim PC to explain how he or she would attack with a bow from a horse and allow an attempt if it was described well.

[Rich H]

However, in The Two Towers, Chapter 3 The Uruk Hai, we do have a single instance of bows used from horseback. The Rohirrim approach; fire at retreating Orcs (those carrying Merry & Pippin ) and then ride away out of range of the orc bowmen. This strategy was repeated several times as the orcs ran. So is this in effect an extended version of Opening Volleys exclusive to Rohirrim Horse Archers? Should a HorseArcher be allowed extra volleys as long as they can remain in a rearward stance and not attacked by an adversary?

The presumption here seems to be that we're trying to explain something in the books based on the combat rules within the game. Regarding the above circumstances, as an LM I'd run that more as a pursuit rather than following the structured steps associated with combat. I'd go more with rolling some Battle or Bow tests vs a TN that would lead to the orcs being gradually picked off, failures would mean the horsemen getting too close and being hurt instead, without the need to follow the turn based rules of a more 'standard' combat. So, I'd consider what's at stake and what the PCs are trying to do, if they are wanting to harrass and pick off the occassional orc, whittling them down as they flee after a battle has happened, I'd employ rules that get to the heart of that rather than wrestling with accommodating it within the usual rules for combat; running it more like an extended action using Battle, Bow, and Athletics etc depending on what the PCs were wanting to do and how they were narrating their actions. A number of accrued successes lead to them completing what they had set out to do, failures and EYEs would lead to base damage endurance loss or an actual combat with an adversary as they'd have misjudged and gotten too close to the retreating orc(s).

Just wanted to draw that out as something additional to consider.

[Falenthal]

The RAW says: TOR book page 125 - "bows... can be used in sieges, from horseback, in dense woodland or in the open field" also " warriors bearing bows usually carry another weapon to draw when the enemy gets closer" This suggests to me that I don't expect to see bows used in a Charge.

As I read it, bows cannot be used from a mount when in Close Combat. But they can be used in a Charge. A Charge is not Closed Combat.

I also can't see any missile weapons being fired into a melee where the risk of friendly-fire casualties is significant because a cavalry melee seems to be a lot more mobile and fluid with targets and friends changing relative positions many times.

That would be represented by the fact that, to fire into a melee once in Close Combat, the archer has either to dismount and get to Rearward Stance (with a base TN of 12) or have the Horse-archery Virtue and go into the melee itself (with lower TNs due to the closer approach to enemies).

However, in The Two Towers, Chapter 3 The Uruk Hai, we do have a single instance of bows used from horseback. The Rohirrim approach; fire at retreating Orcs (those carrying Merry & Pippin ) and then ride away out of range of the orc bowmen. This strategy was repeated several times as the orcs ran. So is this in effect an extended version of Opening Volleys exclusive to Rohirrim Horse Archers? Should a HorseArcher be allowed extra volleys as long as they can remain in a rearward stance and not attacked by an adversary?

"A few of the riders appeared to be bowmen, skilled at shooting from a running horse. Riding swiftly into range they shot arrows at the Orcs that straggled behind, and several of them fell; then the riders wheeled away out of the range of the answering bows of their enemies, who shot wildly, not daring to halt. This happened many times, and on one occasion arrows fell among the Isengarders. One of them, just in front of Pippin, stumbled and did not get up again." - The Uruk-Hai, The Two Towers

As I understand it (for) now, this could be represented by the fact that a Wheel and Charge maneuver can be performed by a group of mounted archers. The "ride away out of the range of the orc bowmen" might be tricky if you want to explain everything with the rules, as Rich H pointed out. But from a narrative perspective is understandably that the riders go far away to wheel their mounts and then only receive one shot while charging again to fire their bows. Also, from the text, the Orcs were mostly retreating (rolling Athletics/Maneuver tests) during their actions, but some of them did attack ("bows of their enemies, who shot wildly,"), although probably with low skill.

The Horse Archery virtue in HLoR simply permits you to fire a bow while on a horse: just as you would fire a bow while on foot in normal combat. Or am I reading this wrong?

It permits you to fire the bow from a horse when in Close Combat, from a position of melee (Forward, Open or Defensive), thus having a lower TN to hit. Also, it negates the limit to the Bow skill due to the Athletics skill.