Intimidate Foe, a little too good?

[GaladrielsHeels]

Hey all you free folk out there
Couple of points to make about Intimidate foe manoeuvre

1.) A Beorning Warden in my group (Battle 3) has ‘Rinsed and Repeated’ this every fight he’s been in & drained the hell out of opponents hate.

2.) As a consequence many of the special abilities of foes cannot be used (hideous toughness and strength are prime examples)

3.) Do people think this Manoeuvre is too effective?

4.) I’m proposing that the TN goes to 12 + attribute, that only intelligent foes (orcs, etc) can be intimidated, anything with Great Size is immune to this & foes can use this manoeuvre on companions with a TN 12 + heart to drain hope
What are LM’s experiences with this manoeuvre thus far?
Thanks G.H

[Rich H]

1.) A Beorning Warden in my group (Battle 3) has ‘Rinsed and Repeated’ this every fight he’s been in & drained the hell out of opponents hate.

I'm assuming you mean Awe* 3 as that is what is keyed to Intimidate Foe. I don't know how many battles you've played through but I'm surprised that such a skill level [3] has "drained the hell" out of opponents Hate in "every fight". Are you allowing him to target the creature(s) affected instead of you (the LM) distributing the Hate loss amongst all opponents? Something doesn't see quite right.

* EDIT: Forgot that you could use Battle as well, thanks Zed. Still doesn't change the commentary though.

2.) As a consequence many of the special abilities of foes cannot be used (hideous toughness and strength are prime examples)

Yes, that is a good reason to use it and making Adversaries Wearied as well.

3.) Do people think this Manoeuvre is too effective?

Personally, no I don't. The PC has to adopt a Forward stance which makes him very easy to hit and Intimidate is used instead of an attack. I've struggled to get the players to use it for their characters, even stating that I'd be fairly easy going with assigning the Hate loss to specific creatures based on the description/narrative of the player in question. It still doesn't get used much.

4.) I’m proposing that the TN goes to 12 + attribute, that only intelligent foes (orcs, etc) can be intimidated, anything with Great Size is immune to this & foes can use this manoeuvre on companions with a TN 12 + heart to drain hope

Ouch! That last bit is really harsh! Avoid doing that, seriously. ... You could introduce the other elements though, even gradually - in order to get the balance right, if that works for your game.

[zedturtle]

Battle is also allowed for Intimidate (I'm always reminded of 'Display Weapon Prowess' from AD&D2E). The key to having enemies handle Intimidators is to give them fodder... gobbos for orcs, attercops for spiders, etc. Since the LM can allocate the Hate drain, that allows you to keep your heavy hitters hard.

I'm not much for the alternative suggestions but will expand that later as I am able.

[uhu79]

I am also wondering what the reason for your impression might be. I have seen a couple of fights now but never experienced an unbalanced effect of "intimidate foe". Rather that it's not used effectively by my players just like Rich has mentioned.

Could you describe in a little more detail what happened?

[GaladrielsHeels]

First off, thanks for your input.

Damn, had forgotten to distribute hate loss amongst foes; that would have made a hell of a difference!

The combat in question involved a Marsh Ogre that had stalked and ambushed the party. I suppose with there being only a single opponent all the hate loss was directed at him.

Regarding the Beorning always taking forward stance, he has maybe been lucky as his parry is 2 making him TN 8 to hit. He didn't get hit once!

Beornings player also commented that he felt Open Stance was a bit meh. I would disagree as rally is decent once the fellowship start taking endurance loss.

OK i was probably a bit over the top with some of the proposed house rules i admit. Planning an Orc ambush on the elf path this coming session. See how that goes with the potential hate loss. Likely it will balance out as there will be 8 orcs which is 2 on each companion.

[Rich H]

Damn, had forgotten to distribute hate loss amongst foes; that would have made a hell of a difference!

The combat in question involved a Marsh Ogre that had stalked and ambushed the party. I suppose with there being only a single opponent all the hate loss was directed at him.

When facing groups of foes that will make a *big* difference so try not to forget!

Regarding the Beorning always taking forward stance, he has maybe been lucky as his parry is 2 making him TN 8 to hit. He didn't get hit once!

So, it only occurred in one combat so far and against one opponent. I'd therefore caution against making any changes to the rules until you have more of a sample to go on - and using all of the rules correctly. Sounds like he was also very lucky not to get hit so this one combat looks like it could be a statistical abnormality.

Beornings player also commented that he felt Open Stance was a bit meh. I would disagree as rally is decent once the fellowship start taking endurance loss.

It doesn't really matter, players are free to pick their stances and Forward makes a character very easy to hit. Intimidate Foe is also at the expense of an attack so it does carry risks and considerations.

OK i was probably a bit over the top with some of the proposed house rules i admit. Planning an Orc ambush on the elf path this coming session. See how that goes with the potential hate loss. Likely it will balance out as there will be 8 orcs which is 2 on each companion.

Like I said above, I'd hang fire on making any changes until you have run a few more fights, under different conditions (eg, more and varied enemies), as your sample of data is currently not enough to make an informed decision in my opinion.

[bluejay]

Also don't forget Commanding Voice! Very helpful for reinforcing rank and file soldiers.

I have to agree with Rich's sentiments here. Intimidate Foe usually puts you at such a tactical disadvantage due to Forward Stance that it's rarely used.

In my new campaign the Beorning character does tend to open with Intimidate Foe but only for a round or so because he takes a helluva beating while he's doing it. Judicious use of Protect Companion can help here but of course that costs Hope.

Honestly if the Fellowship in your game are playing in a tightly coordinated manner using exceptionally effective combinations of stances and manoeuvres then they are to be praised for it ... and rewarded with tougher encounters! There are more than enough ways to break up their tactics and throw them off balance without changing the rules.

One obvious example is using the revelation from the Eye of Mordor where upcoming adversaries have some of the more powerful features from the Rivendell supplement. Also if you don't have the Rivendell supplement then definitely buy it. Lots of really powerful and dangerous features there!

[Earendil]

I have found Intimidate Foe can be ridiculously effective against a single foe; one extraordinary success and your Hill-Troll has lost more than half its Hate!

Yes, it's true that the hero is vulnerable while doing it, but even a Hill-Troll is very unlikely to do more than 15 damage in one round (8 on an ordinary hit) and besides, it may make more sense for the enemy to attack another hero who looks close to dropping instead of the one doing the intimidating. So the hero can probably risk doing it twice, taking maybe 5 or 6 Hate away!

I wanted to keep intimidation useful, so I didn't want to nerf it too much, but I found a solution we all agreed was reasonable: one hero can't successfully intimidate the same foe twice in the same battle. It just seems logical; you've done what you can to intimidate them; trying again won't make you seem any scarier. (But if you fail, you can have another go, because it would be too harsh otherwise.)

By the way, I would definitely allow it to be used on non-sentient creatures; animals are, if anything, easier to scare than people.

[Rich H]

Yes, it's true that the hero is vulnerable while doing it, but even a Hill-Troll is very unlikely to do more than 15 damage in one round (8 on an ordinary hit) and besides, it may make more sense for the enemy to attack another hero who looks close to dropping instead of the one doing the intimidating

That's circumstance dependent - why would another hero look close to dropping. He wouldn't necessarily, so the LM could select any he wanted - eg, the hero standing there posturing in a more unguarded stance, the hero he's previously hit, the one shouting like a loon, the hero who looks like a wimp, etc. However, if the intimidate action worked I'd suggest that the foe may avoid the PC in question, he's been intimidated by him after all, but that's really up to each LM.

I wanted to keep intimidation useful, so I didn't want to nerf it too much, but I found a solution we all agreed was reasonable: one hero can't successfully intimidate the same foe twice in the same battle. It just seems logical; you've done what you can to intimidate them; trying again won't make you seem any scarier. (But if you fail, you can have another go, because it would be too harsh otherwise.)

That's definitely been something that many have suggested here before. In fact I think I was involved in the initial discussion... EDIT: Can't find anything earlier than this exchange:

How about capping the maximum loss per round to be the best result? I.e. Four Hate can be drained each round (either by one good roll or several lesser results combined together) but then any other Intimidates don't have any further effect? That would make folks take a more balanced approach, I think.

I certainly don't like one option in combat being overused on the grounds that its pretty boring. I've actually played with the players/PCs deciding which opponent(s) they are intimidating (declared before the roll) and them therefore deciding the Hate loss per round but only allowing it to be used once per combat per player and only allowing it to be attempted once per round on a specific opponent or set of opponents. That way, it lets the players target the usage but limits the number of times it can be used and so avoids repetition. This has worked so far for my group but they are good at playing to the spirit of the rules rather than to the letter.

By the way, I would definitely allow it to be used on non-sentient creatures; animals are, if anything, easier to scare than people.

What adversaries in TOR constitute being non-sentient? I'm not talking about real world equivalents here but stuff within the game so far - it feels like a grey area to me.

[Rich H]

And some quotes from older threads by Francesco and Andrew... May prove of use to the OP.

Some considerations...

It seems to me that mostly everyone here got the rules right - there are now no limits in the use of both tasks, apart from forfeiting entirely your attack. This means that if everyone is intimidating, no one will attack and thus inflict no damage.

Now, this tactic might work with isolated creatures (Trolls, usually), and it might indeed be a problem, but it is something we will tackle from another direction if we actually find it constitutes a thing to fix - possibly by revising Great Size (creatures with GS could be made harder, or even impervious to Intimidate), or by adding another special ability ad hoc for such creatures.

With larger groups the problem is not there. If the creatures are puny, Intimidate does what it was designed to do - make the fight shorter. If the creatures are an organised warband, with a mix of creatures, the bigger guys will make the Intimidate roll harder(high Att.level) and there will be a supply of 'cannon fodder' creatures to use to 'soak up' the Hate point loss, while the tougher ones pound away on the Intimidating heroes in Forward stance.

Francesco

I was just typing a big reply when I saw Francesco had replied, but I thought I'd post my thoughts anyway...

There's nothing to say you can't use them as much as you like, but remember:

• You can't use them and attack at the same time.
• The TN to intimidate a foe is 10+the highest attribute level involved. In fights featuring tougher opponents, this could mean a TN of 18 or 19...
• You can't intimidate foe if you've just received a wound.
• No amount of endurance will stop you being wounded, or killed.
• Reducing a foe to 0 Hate will not necessarily win you the battle. A Troll will pound you into dust with or without Hate.
• Some foes restore Hate...

But anyway, Intimidate Foe and Rally Comrades is a valid combo - just make sure you have allies who are fighting too or you'll be ground down before the enemy is.