Making orcs and goblins a little bit more "humans"

[Lifstan]

One thing that bothers my players and me is that orcs and goblins are always presented as "bad" by Tokien, like chaotic evil in the old D&D system. It's a problem that Tolkien recognised himself in his letters. I was wondering if it was possible to imagine some scenarios that would change that... at least a little bit.

On idea would be to play on the idea that Sauron makes them act really bad (like chaotic evil), but if he doens't influence them they would be... let say at least chaotic neutral. I'm wondering if it would be possible to imagine a village of orcs (in Mirkwood for example) that can escape the influence of Sauron because of some magical source. I'm thinking maybe a magical small river runring by or an artefact of some sort. Staying near that magic enables them to not be influenced by Sauron. But if they leave...

What do you think of that idea? Is it too far from Tolkien's canon? And what kind of story would you write based on that seed?

[Otaku-sempai]

I was thinking of something more like an solitary farmhold or homestead where a young goblin was raised in isolation from other Orc-kind. The creature might have been originally treated as little more than a slave, but kindness and understanding might have transformed its outlook significantly.

[zedturtle]

Hmmm. I'm usually very much against literalist interpretations of the source material, but this is one case in which I think a simple answer is the best one. The real world has enough shades of grey for me; I'm perfectly happy with my orcs being relentlessly evil and unredeemable within the circles of the world. (They're also, for me, Elves corrupted by Morgoth, which I think is the best answer to the various questions surrounding orcs and their origins.) Sometimes the heroes need to have moral quandaries to deal with... I use evil men (or maybe Evil Men) for these. Sometimes they just need to be heroes and smite evil... I use orcs for this. Even though they are corrupted Children (meaning that they have a natural lifecycle and don't spontaneously generate from dung heaps), I try to refer to orcs and goblins as 'it's and never have non-combatant orcs appear in the game.

That said, if you wanted to introduce orcs that had somehow thrown off their corruption, it's your game. Your heroes might be very challenged by meeting such orcs, and hard pressed to keep them safe. We know from the Professor's materials that although orcs might deserve mercy from the other Children, they were rarely granted it. So keeping the orcs safe from those who would want to destroy them would be an important factor. The other would be if there's some chance of the orcs reverting, or it all being a trick by some stronger servant of the Shadow. Could be fun!

[thekingofkings]

concur with Zed there, but again its pretty clear these creatures are irredeamable scumbags, thats kind of their point. They are not a naturally occurring race, they are a twisted corrupted thing meant only for evil. Zed hit it on the head with its your game, do what you want. I would say that i would use other human races, like hillmen and dunlendings (some easterlings or haradrim) for that bit of moral grey area.

[Arinbor]

This reminds me of a small scenario I recently ran where my players had to seek refuge in an old hold along the Old Forest Road after encountering some manner of giant wolf-like beast. In the basement were 6 goblins who had been somewhat trapped there for an undisclosed period of time, too scared to venture out. The party, consisting of a woodsman, dwarf and 2 elves had to discuss the morality of murdering these goblins.
The elf gave them food (they were starved), the dwarf disagreed and effectively enslaved them to make them fix the place up a little (barricades, cleaning etc) while they were there. Then he murdered them as they were leaving. I gave him shadow for that.
All in all, was amusing.

[Lifstan]

(They're also, for me, Elves corrupted by Morgoth, which I think is the best answer to the various questions surrounding orcs and their origins.)

I agree, but for me that's more an argument for making them more "humans" than the contrary. After all, at the bottom they are Elves, corrupted by Morgoth yes, but Elves nonetheless, the first born of Ilúvatar. If we make them act like chaotic evil all the time, aren't we oblivious of that fact?

On top of that, it's also about making the Orc culture more interessting. What about females and children orcs? Seems like issues we should adress in a TOR campaign...

Then he murdered them as they were leaving. I gave him shadow for that. All in all, was amusing.

That's also a question I had for some times: do we sometimes give players shadow points for killing orcs, or is killing orcs always the right thing to do?

[Havinor]

Yeah I'm kind of the opinion that orcs are by nature, evil. Under the influence of Sauron/Saruman I would say they become driven and focused, but even left to their own devices they will inevitably fall to evil ways.

Men are corruptable, orcs are corrupted.

[Rich H]

Another approach would be to pick up and develop the idea of "The Toft" settlement that is outlined within Heart of the Wild. In it the leader of that town/village, Vidugalum, commands men and a brigade of orcs (that fled Dol Guldur) and although the place is dangerous the write up doesn't necessarily paint it as a wholly evil place. This could perhaps forge a middle ground between the two opinions expressed in this thread thus far and allow a GM to introduce the idea of orcs that are free of the Shadow's direct influence and how they work with humans simply to survive in a harsh and unforgiving world. Now, the means they use would still be harsh and villanous to most outsiders but considering their background and the circumstances they find themselves in a clever GM could inject a little bit of grey into the way it is all presented.

[Otaku-sempai]

The elf gave them food (they were starved), the dwarf disagreed and effectively enslaved them to make them fix the place up a little (barricades, cleaning etc) while they were there. Then he murdered them as they were leaving. I gave him shadow for that.
All in all, was amusing.

This scenario is a good example of when a temporary truce is possible. The heroes and goblins can work together to achieve a common goal (survival) and then part knowing that they might meet again as enemies. And everyone can be okay with that.

Even Wood-elves would take goblins captive, if they sued for mercy--although I'm sure that exceptions took place--perhaps even releasing them in time (with dire warnings to never return). Tolkien wrote:

...Wood-elves were not goblins, and were reasonably well-behaved even to their worst enemies, when they captured them. The giant spiders were the only living things that they had no mercy upon.

I completely agree with giving the Dwarf a point of Shadow, only wondering if it shouldn't have been more.

[Finrod Felagund]

They are not a naturally occurring race, they are a twisted corrupted thing meant only for evil.

This seems a pretty powerful argument to me if you want to keep Orcs as completely evil. Other issues could be more practical; for example they have no farming or husbandry so the only way that they can feed themselves is to raid local humans. This means that no peace is possible. A human could try to teach an Orc farming techniques I suppose, but that's pretty risky as they would likely be eaten before the seeds were in the ground! They could use slaves to grow food as Sauron did, but that's tricky because sunlight makes them queasy.

I know that there have been other threads about this and I've also commented on it. For example there was one about an Orc Priestess who goes on to save the world in the 4th Age. She'd have to be remarkable; MERP envisioned Orc females as living in Harems basically at the pleasure of the dominant males. Their imps live in nurseries under the guidance of lesser females who have to regularly ply whips to keep the little tykes from murdering each other!