A Question About Traits and Advancement Points

[zedturtle]

The reasoning is sound to me, and based on story first so I'd allow it. Also, because I'm a sucker for players taking the narrative, and it doesn't really break the game.

Fair enough. It feels a bit off to me, especially as in a face-to-face game, it's a bit of 'remember that roll 20 minutes ago, I totally should have got an AP for it'. But that doesn't mean it's wrong, and if had been an honest error, I would totally allow the AP so perhaps I need to change my mind...

[Glorelendil]

The thing I like about it is that it offers options for invoking traits. Otherwise it could be too tempting/too easy to invoke the same trait every time for preliminary rolls. (Like always using Hardy on Travel rolls.)

A great example is Travel rolls: you roll Lore for a Journey you're about to undertake, and you get a success but you already have an AP, so you invoke Curious: "I've always liked maps so I spend extra time poring over those in the library." Sure, that works. How many times are you going to use it?

But once you're actually out on the road you can interact with the environment and invoke your traits there. Now every time you make a roll you have the option of spending a bonus die and invoking a trait to retroactively get the AP. "My curiosity leads me to discover a patch of fresh strawberries, which reinvigorate me for more walking."

Ok, it's a bit of bookkeeping, but it's only for preliminary rolls, and maybe for the few other places where you roll a skill in order to get more dice to use another time (e.g. Dunlending "Ill Omen").

The more I think about it the more I like it.

[Falenthal]

It's not a bad idea. Besides, it doesn't need extra bookkeeping: only that which you'd normally would have to keep track of how many bonus dice the group has.
Well, maybe someone could try to invoke a Trait during the Preliminary roll AND AGAIN when using the bonus die. Well, shame on him if he's a cheater or needs to do this things to have fun.

[beckett]

The reasoning is sound to me, and based on story first so I'd allow it. Also, because I'm a sucker for players taking the narrative, and it doesn't really break the game.

Fair enough. It feels a bit off to me, especially as in a face-to-face game, it's a bit of 'remember that roll 20 minutes ago, I totally should have got an AP for it'.

Not if the player announces ahead of time that she or he will be invoking a trait at a later, more narratively appropriate time.

If the player were to frame it as you've described ('remember that roll 20 minutes ago, I totally should have got an AP for it') I would question it, and probably not allow it. But if the player rolls the preliminary roll and declares their intention to essentially delay invoking their trait, I would be inclined to say okay.

[Rich H]

The reasoning is sound to me, and based on story first so I'd allow it. Also, because I'm a sucker for players taking the narrative, and it doesn't really break the game.

Fair enough. It feels a bit off to me, especially as in a face-to-face game, it's a bit of 'remember that roll 20 minutes ago, I totally should have got an AP for it'. But that doesn't mean it's wrong, and if had been an honest error, I would totally allow the AP so perhaps I need to change my mind...

It could even be from the previous game session. But that is my issue with it too and then also having to remember that if multiple bonus dice were obtained during the preliminary roll you'd have to remember the (later) trait invocation could only be used when assigning one of them to a later roll. And you'd have to remember the result of the preliminary roll, because those additional APs have increasing prerequisites. All a bit too messy from my pov. I prefer trait invocation being related to the action at the time; it's cleaner, easier to manage, and more focussed.

[Glorelendil]

Even though I'm a fan of the idea for narrative reasons, I agree that it creates a little bit of a bookkeeping complication.

For those who like the idea, I would propose that when the player wishes to defer the invocation on a preliminary roll, a question mark ('?') is written over the appropriate AP.
- When the player spends any bonus dice and invokes a trait, the question mark is replaced with an AP and all is well.
- If, before then, for any other reason an AP is earned in that group, it replaces the question mark.
- When the bonus dice are no longer valid, that is when the Combat, Journey, or Encounter has ended, the question mark is erased.

[DylanRPG]

This is an interesting question. I think, ultimately, whether or not this would be allowed depends on the manner of use, and after thinking about it (and coming to understand the question) I actually don't think it would take any special House rules or book-keeping.

Battle is the Common Skill in question of course if we're talking about Preliminary rolls for combat - so the Bonus Success dice were indeed created using a Common Skill. But the Success Dice don't have life or shape until they are actually used, and the question becomes, what are they used for? In that moment the Success Dice are defined.

So, if we are talking about a Weapon Skill roll with the Bonus Dice, the Trait should not be able to be invoked for an Advancement Point - because that it is not allowed (simple).

However, there are Common Skill rolls in combat. Taking the example above, the hero with the Vengeful trait rolls for Battle and gains 1 Success Die. During combat his friend is wounded by a Goblin chieftain. The next round, he chooses to take the Forward Stance, and on his turn rolls for Awe to Intimidate Foe. After rolling it does not look as though the roll will be successful, so he spends 1 Success Die and invokes his Vengeful trait on the roll, which is all well and good because this is a roll for Awe, which (like Battle) is a Common Skill. The Orc-chieftain recoils before the fell countenance of the hero and his wrath, losing Hate points appropriately. The player gains an Advancement point for his successful tactic.

This would also apply when using bonus success dice to Heal, Rally, or Escape.

Examples in Travel or Encounter conditions are easy to think of.

But in general I think the Trait needs to apply to the roll of the Success Die it is being used with, and not on the Preliminary Roll that created it. So you should be able to invoke a Trait with bonus dice in combat, but not on a Weapon Skill roll.

[Rich H]

I actually don't think it would take any special House rules or book-keeping.

Based on what the OP wants to do, it does require book-keeping as per Glor's last post in this thread.

So, if we are talking about a Weapon Skill roll with the Bonus Dice, the Trait should not be able to be invoked for an Advancement Point - because that it is not allowed (simple).

The OP was using it to invoke an AP for the Battle skill and therefore the Vocation skill group.

However, there are Common Skill rolls in combat. Taking the example above, the hero with the Vengeful trait rolls for Battle and gains 1 Success Die. During combat his friend is wounded by a Goblin chieftain. The next round, he chooses to take the Forward Stance, and on his turn rolls for Awe to Intimidate Foe. After rolling it does not look as though the roll will be successful, so he spends 1 Success Die and invokes his Vengeful trait on the roll...

That isn't how the rules work. A Bonus Die is *not* rolled after the initial success dice are rolled; a decision is taken by the player to add a bonus dice before the roll.

... which is all well and good because this is a roll for Awe, which (like Battle) is a Common Skill. The Orc-chieftain recoils before the fell countenance of the hero and his wrath, losing Hate points appropriately. The player gains an Advancement point for his successful tactic.

You've not stated here to which Skill Group you'd apply it to so what you could be describing is how the RAW currently works.

But in general I think the Trait needs to apply to the roll of the Success Die it is being used with, and not on the Preliminary Roll that created it. So you should be able to invoke a Trait with bonus dice in combat, but not on a Weapon Skill roll.

... This makes me think you are just supporting the RAW.

[Rich H]

Even though I'm a fan of the idea for narrative reasons, I agree that it creates a little bit of a bookkeeping complication.

For those who like the idea, I would propose that when the player wishes to defer the invocation on a preliminary roll, a question mark ('?') is written over the appropriate AP.
- When the player spends any bonus dice and invokes a trait, the question mark is replaced with an AP and all is well.
- If, before then, for any other reason an AP is earned in that group, it replaces the question mark.
- When the bonus dice are no longer valid, that is when the Combat, Journey, or Encounter has ended, the question mark is erased.

That seems pretty straightforward and easy to track - nice one!

[Glorelendil]

Yeah, what Rich said.

I'm suggesting it would be fine to use it with attack rolls because you're not invoking a trait on the skill/attack being used, you're invoking the trait to explain why the skill has extra "oomph", which mechanically is because of the successful preliminary roll.

All you are doing is time-shifting both trait usage and AP earned to apply to the use of the bonus die, rather than the earning of it.