A Question About Traits and Advancement Points

[DylanRPG]

I actually don't think it would take any special House rules or book-keeping.

Based on what the OP wants to do, it does require book-keeping as per Glor's last post in this thread.

So, if we are talking about a Weapon Skill roll with the Bonus Dice, the Trait should not be able to be invoked for an Advancement Point - because that it is not allowed (simple).

The OP was using it to invoke an AP for the Battle skill and therefore the Vocation skill group.

However, there are Common Skill rolls in combat. Taking the example above, the hero with the Vengeful trait rolls for Battle and gains 1 Success Die. During combat his friend is wounded by a Goblin chieftain. The next round, he chooses to take the Forward Stance, and on his turn rolls for Awe to Intimidate Foe. After rolling it does not look as though the roll will be successful, so he spends 1 Success Die and invokes his Vengeful trait on the roll...

That isn't how the rules work. A Bonus Die is *not* rolled after the initial success dice are rolled; a decision is taken by the player to add a bonus dice before the roll.

... which is all well and good because this is a roll for Awe, which (like Battle) is a Common Skill. The Orc-chieftain recoils before the fell countenance of the hero and his wrath, losing Hate points appropriately. The player gains an Advancement point for his successful tactic.

You've not stated here to which Skill Group you'd apply it to so what you could be describing is how the RAW currently works.

But in general I think the Trait needs to apply to the roll of the Success Die it is being used with, and not on the Preliminary Roll that created it. So you should be able to invoke a Trait with bonus dice in combat, but not on a Weapon Skill roll.

... This makes me think you are just supporting the RAW.

Some points ...

I forgot that the Battle skill can also be used for Intimidate Foe (in addition to Awe).

I don't agree about the book-keeping, as per my post. I'm aware that the OP wanted to invoke the Trait for the Battle skill (and therefore the Vocation skill group), using a Weapon. I am suggesting this should not be allowed. But a Trait invoked for Intimidate, Rally, or Escape should be allowed. This would then apply to the Awe, Battle, Inspire, Song, and Athletics skills, and therefore could potentially apply to the Personality, Vocation, Custom or Movement Skill groups. I wasn't speaking literally when I talked about Skills instead of Skill Groups for applying the Advancement Point.

Thank you for the correction about the Bonus Die. But it would work the same way, really. The character in question sees that his friend is Wounded, and on the next round he takes the Forward Stance, and chooses to Intimidate Foe, adding a Bonus Success Die for good measure. The roll is a success, he invokes his Vengeful Trait.

And yes, I am of course supporting the rules as written. But I wouldn't say I'm just supporting the rules as written. I am suggesting that if a player wants to Invoke a Trait in combat as a result of his Preliminary Roll, this is the path to doing it supported by the game rules. If that's obvious I apologize. I think it would be a good solution though at the gaming table that would not require any extra bookwork, as I said. I am also suggesting, as an answer, that if the OP is asking whether not you should be able to invoke a Trait on a bonus die for attacks in combat because they were generated by Battle rolls in the Preliminary stage, that you can't do that according to the rules.

If a player asked me at the table, my response would be leaning towards figuring out a way to get the player what they'd like to do according to the RAW - so it depends on what the player actually wants. If they are asking because they specifically would like to Invoke a Trait for an Advancement with the swing of the sword and success dice, my answer is no. But if the point behind the question is to be able to Invoke a Trait during combat with (or without) Success dice, then I have offered what would be my solution.

[DylanRPG]

Yeah, what Rich said.

I'm suggesting it would be fine to use it with attack rolls because you're not invoking a trait on the skill/attack being used, you're invoking the trait to explain why the skill has extra "oomph", which mechanically is because of the successful preliminary roll.

All you are doing is time-shifting both trait usage and AP earned to apply to the use of the bonus die, rather than the earning of it.

I can see where you're coming from. For myself I feel that the shift you are talking about in emphasis from how you earn the Advancement Point to how you use it rather changes how AP are supposed to work. I also would be worried about the implication (in general) of using Traits for attacks, which this rule allows, because I imagine there's a reason that the invocation of Traits has been confined to Common Skill rolls (I imagine for the sake of balance and preventing abuse). This isn't too big of a deal maybe, because there's no guarantee one will get those Bonus Dice in the first place, so it may work just fine. I'm not sure.

[Rich H]

I don't agree about the book-keeping, as per my post.

As far as I can tell your post doesn't explain why you don't think it needs book-keeping so if you want to bring people on board with that I think you should explain why; Glorelendil's post illustrates a clean book-keeping solution to show and record at what level of AP *and* to what Skill Group the AP should be assigned when a trait relating to just one (of the potentially) three bonus dice is invoked. Why do you think his suggested usage of traits doesn't need this?

I'm aware that the OP wanted to invoke the Trait for the Battle skill (and therefore the Vocation skill group), using a Weapon. I am suggesting this should not be allowed. But a Trait invoked for Intimidate, Rally, or Escape should be allowed. This would then apply to the Awe, Battle, Inspire, Song, and Athletics skills, and therefore could potentially apply to the Personality, Vocation, Custom or Movement Skill groups.

What you've described there is just the RAW; Traits can already be invoked when using Common Skills in combat.

Glorelendil was suggesting that such invocations of a Trait (when a bonus dice obtained during the preliminary Battle roll is also used) can result in the AP check being assigned to the Vocation skill group and not to the skill group the common skill currently being tested is part of. In addition they could also be invoked to get an AP in Vocation on attacks.

I wasn't speaking literally when I talked about Skills instead of Skill Groups for applying the Advancement Point.

When discussing rules I think it'd help to be literal *and* explicit in what we mean, otherwise things can get misunderstood when explanations aren't clear! Not always easy to do, agreed.

EDIT: Gone back and updated this post as it originally cross-posted with the one above.

[Rich H]

I can see where you're coming from. For myself I feel that the shift you are talking about in emphasis from how you earn the Advancement Point to how you use it rather changes how AP are supposed to work. I also would be worried about the implication (in general) of using Traits for attacks, which this rule allows, because I imagine there's a reason that the invocation of Traits has been confined to Common Skill rolls (I imagine for the sake of balance and preventing abuse). This isn't too big of a deal maybe, because there's no guarantee one will get those Bonus Dice in the first place, so it may work just fine. I'm not sure.

Yeah, it isn't being proposed that traits are being used for attacks, to auto-succeed or anything, just that the invocation of a trait to get an AP in the skill group associated with the preliminary roll can be delayed to when one of the bonus dice gained from it are actually used in a task/test - whether that be Common Skill or Weapon Skill. It's just trying to make the narrative options that a player has available to them a little more interesting, there's not really any balance issue or anything like that to worry about or any more APs being gained.

I think it's a nice idea and was only resistant to it from a book-keeping perspective but Glorelendil's post a few back from here show how easy this can be managed so I think the extra narrative options outweigh this small overhead.

[DylanRPG]

Rich H, I think I have explained why I don't think it needs extra book-keeping. My whole post and the subsequent one explains my position. I think we are somehow not connecting here.

As I said I understand what I'm suggesting is the rules as written.

Glorelendil was suggesting that such invocations of a Trait (when a bonus dice obtained during the preliminary Battle roll is also used) can result in the AP check being assigned to the Vocation skill group and not to the skill group the common skill currently being tested is part of. In addition they could also be invoked to get an AP in Vocation on attacks.

I know that. What I suggested was that it should not be, and I explained my reasons why. I understand that Glorelendil is suggesting a house rule. I'm not - I had a different take on the original post.

Yeah, it isn't being proposed that traits are being used for attacks, to auto-succeed or anything, just that the invocation of a trait to get an AP in the skill group associated with the preliminary roll can be delayed to when one of the bonus dice gained from it are actually used in a task/test - whether that be Common Skill or Weapon Skill. It's just trying to make the narrative options that a player has available to them a little more interesting, there's not really any balance issue or anything like that to worry about or any more APs being gained.

Rich, I understand the proposal, but I'm arguing against it. And I'm not so sure about the balance issues. I'm not saying I'm certain it would be unbalanced, just that I'm not sure. I feel there must be a reason this isn't allowed by default. And I don't feel, as I said, that this interpretation of Advancement Points is really in line with the intention behind Advancement Points. How you earn it, I feel, is really the point - and I feel like rolling for Battle to get Success Dice that can be used to invoke Traits in the vocation group on attack rolls is against the spirit of how AP are meant to be used. I understand that this for you isn't an issue and that you are proposing a house rule to allow it to happen. I'm not suggesting there's an issue with your method, I'm just suggesting, as an answer to the original post, that I would not use that method or allow that. And I am suggesting - because I suspect the intent behind the person who was quoted in the original post might have more to do with figuring out a way to get AP in Battle - a different method, using the rules as written, to possibly satisfy the desire to earn AP in Battle. I'm aware this isn't new or a House Rule.

[Rich H]

Rich H, I think I have explained why I don't think it needs extra book-keeping. My whole post and the subsequent one explains my position. I think we are somehow not connecting here.

Ah, what you meant was that you reject the proposal which therefore means no book-keeping is required not that the proposal didn't require book-keeping.

I feel there must be a reason this isn't allowed by default.

Probably just ease-of-use and book-keeping. Glorelendil's suggestion does require additional record keeping which isn't great in a system that already has its fair share of moving parts.

And I don't feel, as I said, that this interpretation of Advancement Points is really in line with the intention behind Advancement Points. How you earn it, I feel, is really the point - and I feel like rolling for Battle to get Success Dice that can be used to invoke Traits in the vocation group on attack rolls is against the spirit of how AP are meant to be used.

Traits are all about player narrative control so I disagree with this to some extent and think Glorelendil's suggestion does open up those options and means we give players more variety and options to invoke traits in interesting ways. Glor's already stated that he could just invoke his Vengeful trait every time when making a successful Battle preliminary roll but this gets repetitive and therefore pretty boring. Being able to use it when a bonus dice is applied makes it less so.

... I suspect the intent behind the person who was quoted in the original post might have more to do with figuring out a way to get AP in Battle - a different method, using the rules as written, to possibly satisfy the desire to earn AP in Battle. I'm aware this isn't new or a House Rule.

He's already got the AP in Battle (Vocation) if he wants it, by invoking the (for example) Vengeful trait right at the time the result of the preliminary roll occurs, but the OP is saying "I could do this, everytime I make a preliminary roll, but I'd like a little more narrative control and flexibility to be able to do it later when it's more narratively interesting". He isn't getting more AP, he's just delaying when he gets it within the encounter - there's no balance issues or screwing the intent of how APs are obtained through trait invocation because there is no gain only more fun/options at the table, like others have said earlier in the thread. The only issue I have is the book-keeping. And, I can see players forgetting to call in the invocation. You could potentially say that limiting the trait invocation to when the skill is rolled is a limitation that promotes being creative with your traits but it can also create repetitive behaviour, which the GM can veto at the end of the day, but should be avoided where possible through flexibility within the rules.

Have I understood that correctly, Glorelendil?

[Glorelendil]

Bullseye, Rich.

Honestly I'm surprised it's this contentious. It's just "hey can I narrate this later instead of now"?

In fact, there's a chance you would end up with FEWER AP. Let's say you roll a Success on your Battle preliminary check. You've already got one Vocation AP, so if you invoke a trait you can get #2. However, you decide to defer your AP for a more interesting narrative moment. Then in the Battle, before you've spent any bonus dice, you decide to Intimidate Foe and you get an Extraordinary Success! Cool, there's your second AP!

Oops. If you had just invoked a trait normally when you made the preliminary roll it would have been your 2nd AP, and that Extraordinary Success could have become your third AP.

[DylanRPG]

I'm probably coming across far more combative than I feel. I only mean to express a different take on it, I'm not saying it would be wrong to go with your idea, only that I would do something differently.

I think we all about understand each other now, at least.

[aramis]

Being Bold or Reckless in your attack...

... And remember, you can't invoke traits on anything other than Common Skills.

You can't invoke the for experience nor autosuccess.

The third use in rules is to allow a roll that otherwise wouldn't be allowed. This is where there is wiggle room.

A fourth implied but not explicit use is to adjust difficulties (TN's).

And that's where the use in combat applies.

As for the original question, Mark the Exp when the common skill is rolled. If you don't then, you don't ever.

[Rich H]

You can't invoke the for experience nor autosuccess.

Given the nature of the discussion/OP those were the uses relevant to the subject at hand.