TN and Enemy Stats: Secret to players or known?

[Limithron]

I ran a session last week and one of the players kept asking me not to tell them the TN number - he liked it more for story reasons - but that seemed off to me. Once he even used a point of Hope and still failed because he didn't know the TN was super high.

Same goes for stats when fighting enemies - especially Hate and Endurance. Do you guys reveal these numbers to the players? They were up against a Fell Wraith which couldn't be destroyed until his Hate was reduced to zero... but should they know exactly how many attacks that will take or not?

What do you guys do for your sessions?

[Rich H]

I ran a session last week and one of the players kept asking me not to tell them the TN number - he liked it more for story reasons - but that seemed off to me. Once he even used a point of Hope and still failed because he didn't know the TN was super high.

As a Loremaster running the game you should never let that happen. If you're using secret TNs then simply tell the player that spending Hope wouldn't help or would help depending on the case at hand. As per the rules-as-written Hope is only ever spent when invoking an attribute bonus in order to succeed at a test or task.

Same goes for stats when fighting enemies - especially Hate and Endurance. Do you guys reveal these numbers to the players? They were up against a Fell Wraith which couldn't be destroyed until his Hate was reduced to zero... but should they know exactly how many attacks that will take or not?

What do you guys do for your sessions?

You should really keep all of those things secret. You can always hint at a creature using Hate or being low on Hate or Endurance or a particular attack hurting them greatly by your descriptions within the game.

[Limithron]

Rich -

So the Hope scenario aside, do you usually keep you TNs secret?

[Rich H]

So the Hope scenario aside, do you usually keep you TNs secret?

When adversaries are involved, whether that be in direct combat or another kind of opposed action, then yes I do. Players soon realise within a couple of points as to the TN they need which I suppose simulates fighting someone and working out what their capabilities are.

For other tests then I apply a bit of common sense. For instance, if a player-hero is leaping across a chasm then they likely are aware of how far they can jump given the current conditions and therefore I tend to tell the player the TN; parhaps not always precisely but certainly within a point or so. They can then decide whether they want to risk it or not - which is pretty much what we'd all do if faced with a similar challenge in real life!

Does that make sense? I'm sure others will chime in with the way they do things as well.

[Glorelendil]

So the Hope scenario aside, do you usually keep you TNs secret?

When adversaries are involved, whether that be in direct combat or another kind of opposed action, then yes I do. Players soon realise within a couple of points as to the TN they need which I suppose simulates fighting someone and working out what their capabilities are.

For other tests then I apply a bit of common sense. For instance, if a player-hero is leaping across a chasm then they likely are aware of how far they can jump given the current conditions and therefore I tend to tell the player the TN; parhaps not always precisely but certainly within a point or so. They can then decide whether they want to risk it or not - which is pretty much what we'd all do if faced with a similar challenge in real life!

Does that make sense? I'm sure others will chime in with the way they do things as well.

I'm with Rich. I only keep it secret when doing so adds to the story in a meaningful way. If all keeping it a secret does is make it hard to optimize by choosing Forward vs. Open stance, that's not really contributing to the story.

[mirkwoodfalcon]

I've always been open with my players and communicated the TN for just about all rolls (combat and otherwise; example, "You want to climb the tower? Go ahead and roll Athletics against a target number of 16...") Just makes it easier for them to do the math for Hope expenditure themselves.

However, I keep Endurance and Hate secret. Those numbers are for my eyes only But I do try to drop hints when a foe is low on either, like "the orc is breathing heavily, an exhausted look in his wildly darting eyes..."

[Stormcrow]

Given the rules for invoking attribute bonuses with Hope, the difficulty of any action clearly must be known to the player.

[Rich H]

Given the rules for invoking attribute bonuses with Hope, the difficulty of any action clearly must be known to the player.

Sort of but I think upon failing a test a GM can easily say, "if you spend some Hope you'll succeed", without needing to give away the TN if they don't wish to. It's slows the game down slightly but it's something I've used if I want to maintain the tension, part of that being secret TNs.

[Falenthal]

The numbers I don't tell are Endurance, Hate and Tolerance during Encounters. For all the rest, I dont' see a problem telling them. Always, wether giving away the number or not, acompany it with a description that illustrates the difficulty, as others have said in the above comments.

[zedturtle]

Sometimes (especially if it's a new foe, or a custom one) I'll hide some stats or abilities until they become relevant... a few monsters I've run recently have had Great Might, but magical weapons negate that ability for those particular foes, making them more valuable.

And I do agree with most everyone... players need to have an accurate model of what their heroes know. Sometimes that means exposing the game system, sometimes that means hiding it. But never penalise the players for that (i.e. there is no way you can spend Hope and fail, because if Hope won't make you succeed you can't spend it).