On the use (or not) of Valour

[Falenthal]

An exemplar narration of a failed Fear test, in my opinion:

Aragorn had brought torches from Dunharrow, and now he went ahead bearing one aloft; and Elladan with another went at the rear, and Gimli, stumbling behind, strove to overtake him. He could see nothing but the dim flame of the torches; but if the Company halted, there seemed an endless whisper of voices all about him, a murmur of words in no tongue that he had ever heard before.

Nothing assailed the Company nor withstood their passage, and yet steadily fear grew on the Dwarf as he went on: most of all because he knew now that there could be no turning back; all the paths behind were thronged by an unseen host that followed in the dark.

So time unreckoned passed, until Gimli saw a sight that he was ever afterwards loth to recall. The road was wide, as far as he could judge, but now the Company came suddenly into a great empty space, and there were no longer any walls upon either side. The dread was so heavy on him that he could hardly walk. Away to the left something glittered in the gloom as Aragorn’s torch drew near. Then Aragorn halted and went to look what it might be.

‘Does he feel no fear?’ muttered the Dwarf. ‘In any other cave Gimli Gloin’s son would have been the first to run to the gleam of gold. But not here! Let it lie!’

Nonetheless he drew near, and saw Aragorn kneeling, while Elladan held aloft both torches.

..and...

'The Paths of the Dead?’ said Pippin. ‘I heard Aragorn say that, and I wondered what he could mean. Won’t you tell us some more?’

‘Not willingly,’ said Gimli. ‘For upon that road I was put to shame: Gimli Glóin’s son, who had deemed himself more tough than Men, and hardier under earth than any Elf. But neither did I prove; and I was held to the road only by the will of Aragorn.’

‘And by the love of him also,’ said Legolas.

[Otaku-sempai]

An exemplar narration of a failed Fear test, in my opinion...

Did Gimli fail? Or did he succeed, but only barely, with no more than an ordinary success? After all, he did not flee or otherwise abandon or betray his colleagues. Am I missing something here?

[Rich H]

Valour tests are an option and perhaps should be applied to certain situations; success determining that a player's character can act in a certain way or not. I'm still not sure about this though as I'd prefer such decisions to come from a player rather than the rules.

Something along this idea was what made me think of applying the effects of Foul Reek to failed Valour tests:

It doesn't force the player to do/not do anything, but it requires an extra effort from him in case he wants to do something other than defend himself: a daunted hero could climb the cliff of an abyss (roll Athletics), but he should spend a Hope point first. It would represent in some way the tendency to stay paralyzed with fear, but allow a companion to overcome his fear (we're talking about heroes here, after all).

I can see that working better than enforcing behaviours which can often be interpreted by many players, rightly or wrongly, as a form of mind control.

Perhaps there could be two ways of applying such debilitating effects; (1) The need to use Hope to accomplish any sustained or assertive task, as you suggest above, and (2) affected individuals are Wearied until the effect is lifted. Not sure which is worse but it'd be interesting to apply both the options for thematically different things.

[Rich H]

An exemplar narration of a failed Fear test, in my opinion:

<snipped for brevity>

Aren't rules for the paths detailed in 'Horse Lords'? Sorry, I don't have my books to check as currently working away from home.

[Falenthal]

An exemplar narration of a failed Fear test, in my opinion...

Did Gimli fail? Or did he succeed, but only barely, with no more than an ordinary success? After all, he did not flee or otherwise abandon or betray his colleagues. Am I missing something here?

It's open to interpretation, I guess.

In fact, by the RAW, someone who fails a Fear test can still go act normally. Only that he can't spend Hope during the fearsome situation. So, in this case, even if Gimli would have failed his Fear test, by the RAW he could still have walked into the Paths of the Dead.

@Rich: Yes, there are rules for braving the Paths of the Dead. Fear tests are required (lots of them!), but the consequence of failure is gaining Shadow points, not being daunted. So, the same as a Corruption test. At some point, failing a Fear test also means running back.

[Falenthal]

Perhaps there could be two ways of applying such debilitating effects; (1) The need to use Hope to accomplish any sustained or assertive task, as you suggest above, and (2) affected individuals are Wearied until the effect is lifted. Not sure which is worse but it'd be interesting to apply both the options for thematically different things.

The Wearied effect could work. My only concern is that it wouldn't make Fear tests "original" (daunted would be the same as Fatigued), and that it wouldn't affect Hope in a direct way.

Of course, a Weary character will probably need to spend some Hope to succeed at important tests.
If you were very, very mean, you could even add Weary and Daunted as the effects of failing a Fear test: lower rolls, without the chance to use Hope to improve them! (Being serious, I think this would be too much.)

[Feanor]

Id say that failing a fear test would induce Shadow point(s) equal to Wisdom Corruption tests. One gets smitten by the Shadow easier if confronted with its scary abilities or other situations that might be terrifying, in any shape or form the GM deems necessary, dramatic and/or in a Tolkienesque way describes a scene. This is harsh, but it goes along well with certain posts being made on this fourm about how easy it is not to succumb to the shadow. So, in essence making a fear test would then be considered a Corruption test as well.

If the players gets too heavily bombarded with Shadow points, as GM one can decide that for example only 1 shadow point can be gained per test made, and not more than one ever.

Slight warning though, it should only be used, not abused. The consequences would seem abit dire on the the number of players that will continue to be playing ToR after such a first adventure... So use with moderation...

Those are my 5 Sauron ( Shadow ) Cents.

[Otaku-sempai]

Did Gimli fail? Or did he succeed, but only barely, with no more than an ordinary success? After all, he did not flee or otherwise abandon or betray his colleagues. Am I missing something here?

It's open to interpretation, I guess.

In fact, by the RAW, someone who fails a Fear test can still go act normally. Only that he can't spend Hope during the fearsome situation. So, in this case, even if Gimli would have failed his Fear test, by the RAW he could still have walked into the Paths of the Dead.

Okay. Fair enough.

[Rich H]

@Rich: Yes, there are rules for braving the Paths of the Dead. Fear tests are required (lots of them!), but the consequence of failure is gaining Shadow points, not being daunted. So, the same as a Corruption test. At some point, failing a Fear test also means running back.

I don't have a problem with failed Fear tests accruing shadow points in the same way Corruption tests do, it feels that both could lead to a 'heavying' of the spirit through the shadow taking hold. I do agree that at some point a failed Fear test should mean being Daunted. Perhaps as well as the shadow point accrual the character should be Daunted as well. Again, running away is a player choice for me though.

[Corvo]

I have emphasised and confronted my players with adversaries that use Fear as a weapon. The Enemys greatest weapon is fear.
I guarantee the players will prioritize Valour after encountering enemies with the abilitis: Terror, visions of torment and other abilities unlocked when the players are Daunted.
It was only our Barding hero who dared to climb the stairs to the Necromancers hall...

No need to change, just apply tests more often!

This was my experience as well.