Misdeeds and Adversaries

[zedturtle]

I think this is a great opportunity for a Ranger or High Elf to emerge from a hiding spot and approach the heroes. She or he could explain to the heroes that they were watching the orcs but had not acted against them because they had yet seen no evil.

The watcher should not lecture the heroes but talk in high aspirational terms; ideas about how enemies should always be challenged openly and quarter given if it asked for. Then award a small amount of Shadow, reminding the players about Frodo and Gandalf's conversation about mercy and the redemption of Smeagol.

[Rich H]

So ambushing Orcs/goblins for no particular reason apart from the fact they are there - a Misdeed or not?

Nah, no Misdeed for me, particularly if the PCs have carried out the deed without any enjoyment and have even discussed it to some degree. Orcs are always up to no good and the Free Peoples' are in a constant state of war (undeclared or otherwise) with them. Also there are more than enough things for the characters to get exposed to, and gain, Shadow so I would be wary about awarding it for the PCs attacking a patrol of orcs that are obvviously stationed somewhere to do something. If it was gleefully carried out then I would likely award Shadow as they are attacking for the fun of killing and that is something different to carrying out duties in a serious manner.

[Stormcrow]

Ambushing and slaying orcs just because they're there is a Misdeed.

Tolkien never shows us orcs being innocent. The most vicious attack on orcs is probably Eomer's attack on the group marching across Rohan, and in that case the orcs are trespassing and resisting them.

You can avoid the issue by making sure your orcs are thoroughly despicable at all times.

[Earendil]

Faramir ambushes the Southrons in Ithilien. And he's the morally upstanding character who wouldn't take the Ring "if I found it on the highway" and "would not snare even an orc with a falsehood". And, of course, Southrons are proper human people, not creatures of the Shadow like orcs. So I'd say ambushing is clearly not a misdeed in itself, as far as Tolkien can guide us.

The rules also give an example of ambushing someone who you believe to be guilty of a heinous crime, but who turns out to be innocent, and say this would not count as a misdeed if you are contrite and attempt to make amends.

This again implies that ambushing is not a misdeed as long as they actually deserve it (and I'd think orcs always deserve it)!

[Terisonen]

Good point. However, are you not that sure that Faramir not having a test for corruption? Not automatic point, juste a check for it...

[Rich H]

However, are you not that sure that Faramir not having a test for corruption? Not automatic point, juste a check for it...

Corruption Tests do not relate to Misdeeds.

[Stormcrow]

But Faramir didn't ambush Southrons innocently walking by; he ambushed Southrons marching to war against Gondor. Fair game!

It's not the act of ambush that's a misdeed, it's the attack on someone without cause.

[Majestic]

I'd be hesitant to award a Misdeed as well, but then I established Orcs and Goblins as foul, evil creatures in my first game (Words of the Wise) with their unprovoked attacks on the Woodmen.

Not to mention the default setting is five years after a major war where the Free Peoples were against hordes of Orcs. Most people in Middle-earth would have had family members or close friends that fought against (and perhaps some who died by the hand of) these evil adversaries.

Nonetheless, I'd still encourage my players afterwards, discouraging the 'kill all the bad guys and take their loot' approach and letting them know that such tactics could easily sting them in the future.

[Earendil]

But Faramir didn't ambush Southrons innocently walking by; he ambushed Southrons marching to war against Gondor. Fair game!

It's not the act of ambush that's a misdeed, it's the attack on someone without cause.

Well, yes, but that's what I was getting at in my final sentence: "This again implies that ambushing is not a misdeed as long as they actually deserve it (and I'd think orcs always deserve it)!"

I certainly wouldn't want to encourage murderhobo-type behaviour, even towards orcs, but the idea that such an implacable enemy of the free people could be "just innocently walking by" seems pretty implausible to me.

Those Southrons aren't actually campaigning against Gondor when Faramir ambushes them, they're heading to Mordor to join its armies. As such they're a enemy and a danger: they're not engaged in hostilities at that moment, but it's clear that they will do so if not prevented.

I'd say that actively going out looking for orcs to kill might count as a misdeed, unless part of an actual military campaign against orcs (which, if I recall correctly, King Elessar does conduct). But if you come across orcs anywhere near Free peoples, it's not really a stretch to assume that the orcs will harm those Free People given half a chance, and can therefore be considered an enemy and a danger that needs to be dealt with, just like those Southrons.

[Glorelendil]

It's all in the circumstances.

Attacking first before being attacked is one thing. Going out of your way to kill orcs is another.

Where it really gets into an ethical thicket is when orcs try to flee.

Or, worse, when they surrender.

The best (and most fun) solution I've come across for that is giving the orc prisoner the option to fight a duel. If he wins he gets his freedom.