Non fatigued endurance: what is a good value?

[Hermes Serpent]

Those advocating the use of a Hound of Mirkwood to take Wounds for Woodmen seem to have not considered the rules for Hounds enough.
"A wounded hound is put out of combat for the remainder of the scene, and will return at your side at the start of the next session only if you succeed in a Healing roll with a TN of 16. If you fail, the hound will not recover until the next Fellowship phase."

So you lose the Hound until the next Fellowship phase if you fail a TN16 Healing test. Even with your three levels of Healing skill that's roughly a 50/50 chance of losing your best friend for some time. It doesn't matter what your Hound does in combat, Harass or Protect, they can get Wounded very easily. The Hound doesn't even have the benefit of the Protection test the hero gets when hit with a possible Wounding hit.

Presumably the Hound Virtue is the main reason for Woodmen getting a Healing skill level of three despite having not much else to benefit their Healing abilities.

If the Woodman takes the Wound instead then they can recover at 2 points per day which is likely to be much faster than the Hound. Twelve days is often very much less than the time a company spends travelling during an adventure.

I think Fragrant Weeds is a better initial starting Virtue than a Hound as it will keep you not Weary until you take another successful hit.

My earlier comment about dropping the cap for a boost in Endurance was incorrect I was mis-remembering the rule. A boost of +1 to Protection for -2 Endurance is a judgement call that each player must make themselves. I like the benefit but most of my players adventures haven't involved very lengthy journeys, YMMV.

[Elmoth]

I am taking a hound not because it is a great buy (that I think he is anyway, with +2 Hope and the ability to roll the D12 twice and keep the best result for one ability, Hunt in my case) but because it is extremely cool to have him around. I plan to invest Hope in saving his mettle if necessary, not because it is a good points investment, but because he is the best friend of Forlend, the forester. I think it is fitting for him to invest everything he's got to save the hound from pain.

The problem with a Hunter forester is that he has Body 3, so investing Hope in the armour roll is not much of a guarantee. But hey, middle earth can be tough. We will see how it goes

Thanks all. Very informative thread!
Xavi

[Corvo]

I am taking a hound not because it is a great buy (that I think he is anyway, with +2 Hope and the ability to roll the D12 twice and keep the best result for one ability, Hunt in my case) but because it is extremely cool to have him around. I plan to invest Hope in saving his mettle if necessary, not because it is a good points investment, but because he is the best friend of Forlend, the forester. I think it is fitting for him to invest everything he's got to save the hound from pain.

The problem with a Hunter forester is that he has Body 3, so investing Hope in the armour roll is not much of a guarantee. But hey, middle earth can be tough. We will see how it goes

Thanks all. Very informative thread!
Xavi

By the way, keep in mind that (unless my memory betray me) when you take an Eye attack you can:
A) let the dog take the blow
B) take the wound yourself, without any armour roll allowed. Nasty, if I remember correctly.

[Hermes Serpent]

Corvo, those 'herbs' sound better by the minute don't they

Get a dog, +2 Hope - great.
Get hit, dog gets wounded - not so good.
Take the hit yourself, automatic Wound, straight through your armour - priceless

Still if it matches your concept and background great, enjoy the game.

[Rich H]

B) take the wound yourself, without any armour roll allowed. Nasty, if I remember correctly.

That's correct. I think it's an extremely poor rule - lose the dog until the next session (and then only if you make a Healing roll) or take an auto wound yourself.

I quickly houseruled the second bit so that you could still make a protection test.

[James Harrison]

Hi Hermes,

While I agree that fragrant herbs is an excellent option I think Hound of Mirkwood is also an excellent option - and taking wounds for you is fine!

Assuming you do succeed in healing the hound the virtue can be one automatic Armour test past per Session. This is Pretty good. While you are right that a woodsman has a 50/50 chance of healing the hound, they also have favoured healing and the hound provides 2 hope. This means you effectively will break even after 4 wounds: 2 successes, 2 hope expenditures... If you want to use this method that gives you time to get healing 4.
Ok not great, but not awful... and if you are near the end of an adventure your hound will be healed come the fellowship phase.

Some woodmen will have the Leechcraft or the Herb-lore distinctive features... these could often be used to get an auto success at healing that hound - as might beast lore... so many woodmen should not have too much difficulty getting that virtue back next session.

"Presumably the Hound Virtue is the main reason for Woodmen getting a Healing skill level of three despite having not much else to benefit their Healing abilities."

I think the healing skill is just excellent anyway. Having healing 3 is great for you and for your party, and I think it is justified by the amount of herb lore etc. the woodmen have.

I think the "I'll heal faster than the hound" argument can be good sometimes - If you know next up is a long journey; but sometimes you really don't want to be wounded - having the hound take it for you is fine - and considering the above most woodmen should have a great shot at getting the hound back next session

Fragrant Weeds is great if you want to go for a combat virtue - and better at it than the Hound; but the hound is more character defining, and pretty versatile: a skill boost, a hope boost, and it's weakness is potentially a combat boost... so in my book it's also a great virtue. It depends what you want out of your character!

"I quickly houseruled the second bit so that you could still make a protection test."

If this the case the hounds "weakness" becomes a strict advantage, takes a wound for you when you want it - and everything is normal otherwise... I'd re-consider this house rule personally.

And loosing the dog mechanically only looses you some boosts... not crippling.

[Valarian]

I wouldn't count on you healing any faster than the hound. If wounded it takes a prolonged rest once your endurance rating is at maximum to heal, which requires a safe place. Generally, the only time you get to have a prolonged rest at a safe place is during the Fellowship phase. All that can be done before that is for the wound to be treated, which allows Endurance to refresh quicker.

[Angelalex242]

Well, consider what else a dog does...

If you've got a dog, you know what you're doing your first 5 fellowship phases:Maxing your dog out. Now consider the choice on an eye roll again when you've spent 5 fellowship phases maxing out that dog (and burning an extra 5 xp on him...)

The fellowship wanted a sanctuary? Screw you fellowship, I gotta max my dog. And for all the stuff a maxed out dog does...making melee opponents auto weary, letting you shoot more easily, and then making it nearly impossible to get an Eye on 4 common skills, and doubling your chances of a rune on those 4 skills...

The Woodsman has a lot of virtues that require fellowship phases to max out, actually. Herbal Remedies also has a fellowship phase undertaking to get poison curing. So a Woosdman can be expected to use 6 fellowship phases in a row maxing out his dog and learning to cure poisons. Hope he doesn't get many shadow points in all that time...

[Elmoth]

Why do you need to invest everything in your dog instead of other stuff? That puzzled me quite a lot. My idea was to take the dog to annoy opponents so they are Weary when fighting me (this allows me to drop the shield and go 2 handed more easily) and maybe a second reroll on another ability, but that is it. Why more stuff when I know my dog will be in intensive care quite a few times? All eggs in one basket does not seem such a great idea when the advantages can be taken straight away by a plain eye of sauron... I have othjer stuff that needs improvement for sure, after all.

[Angelalex242]

Well, the average PC should get 13 XP per year.

If the Hound is his starting virtue, he has spends 1 XP every Fellowship phase on his dog, and spends the rest on other stuff. Probably gaining other virtues, like Hunter's Resolve and Fragrant Weeds, which combine to the best 'no you are not making me weary' combo in the game. You can't get rid of weary with hunter's resolve, but you can get out of the danger zone with it, and Fragrant Weeds gives you the second chance you need to use Hunter's Resolve before you get hit in the weary zone a second time. You're not putting 'all your eggs in one basket' because you can't invest more then 6 XP into it, and it has to be spread out over 5 fellowship phases. And, of course, he spends his AP on boosting that healing skill to 4, so he doesn't have to worry about the dog going away at a bad time.

The NON combat utility of the dog is really top notch. 4 skills of roll the feat die twice and keep the best? Not bad. Those are probably the 4 skllls dog owners should specialize in (those and healing) to take full advantage of their doggy.