Using the Worm Axe

[Falenthal]

"... during the following round, should you or your companions hit your foe with a Piercing Blow..."

So, in the next round of combat you and your companions all get a chance to take advantage of the weak spot in the worm's armour that has been uncovered.

That's how I see it, too.

Consider that, during the round that the Gandalf was rolled, in fact all attacks are not a single blow.
That is, although Burin and Beor might be in different Stances and roll their attacks in a certain order, that doesn't exactly mean that Beor swings one blow after Burin does. Both are swinging blows and dodging various times during their round, and the roll only represents the added outcome of all their actions.
Therefore, it's not until next round that the Troll has his soft point uncovered and Burin's companions are able to notice and prepare their attacks for it.

[bluejay]

So my feeling about using the actual next round of combat is that it's waaaaay simpler from the point of view of timings.

[Rich H]

Yep and, when all is said and done, that is what the rules actually say. No need to overcomplicate things with hidden meanings or interpretations; combat rounds are an abstraction so it's perfectly okay to allow for an opportunity for a specific type of attack to be uncovered/spotted at the beginning of such a point in time. Also, it's a nice idea to be able to narrate that at the start of a round and allow the players to decide what strategies to adopt.

[zedturtle]

For me, it's perfectly clear as written:

"... during the following round, should you or your companions hit your foe with a Piercing Blow..."

So, in the next round of combat you and your companions all get a chance to take advantage of the weak spot in the worm's armour that has been uncovered. As LM I'd narrate, at the start of the new round, that the player-heroes can see the weakness in the creature's armoured scales and therefore they can now mechanically take advantage of this opening. Up until that point they weren't aware of the opening so couldn't exploit it as they were otherwise occupied; usually avoiding getting eaten!

That works too, for a more simultaneous resolution approach.

[Rich H]

For me, it's perfectly clear as written:

"... during the following round, should you or your companions hit your foe with a Piercing Blow..."

So, in the next round of combat you and your companions all get a chance to take advantage of the weak spot in the worm's armour that has been uncovered. As LM I'd narrate, at the start of the new round, that the player-heroes can see the weakness in the creature's armoured scales and therefore they can now mechanically take advantage of this opening. Up until that point they weren't aware of the opening so couldn't exploit it as they were otherwise occupied; usually avoiding getting eaten!

That works too, for a more simultaneous resolution approach.

Doesn't have to be simultaneous. Like I said in the text you quoted; it's at the beginning of the new combat round where characters refocus and assess that they spot the opening. Nice and simple.

[Earendil]

For me, it's perfectly clear as written:

"... during the following round, should you or your companions hit your foe with a Piercing Blow..."

But I don't think that is perfectly clear. My first, instinctive understanding of what that means is actually different from yours. To me, "during the following round" means within the next round, starting now and ending at this point in the next round.

It's only because bluejay has made me look at it more closely that I've realised other interpretations are valid.

As LM I'd narrate, at the start of the new round, that the player-heroes can see the weakness in the creature's armoured scales and therefore they can now mechanically take advantage of this opening. Up until that point they weren't aware of the opening so couldn't exploit it as they were otherwise occupied; usually avoiding getting eaten!

What about Weak Spot? That has a similar effect, but it's caused by the creature itself exposing a vulnerability rather than a hero creating one. But it explicitly applies to the next attack from each of the companions, even if that's in the same round. It seems weird to me to say that one weakness can be seen and taken advantage of immediately but the other can't.

[zedturtle]

Doesn't have to be simultaneous. Like I said in the text you quoted; it's at the beginning of the new combat round where characters refocus and assess that they spot the opening. Nice and simple.

Right. (I was posting from my phone earlier.) What I meant was that narrating that way makes the mechanical resolution of the previous round seem like it's nearly simultaneous, rather than discreet stages where everyone is queueing up and then going to make their attack at a particular moment. Your description makes it a flurry of blows, a moment of assessment, and then another flurry of blows as the heroes and enemies re-engage. I like that feeling.

[Rich H]

But I don't think that is perfectly clear.

Then you have my sympathies.

What about Weak Spot? That has a similar effect

Similar affect, different circumstances. The dragon is making a specific attack so it gets the attention of the PCs and they notice the opening because of that. For Worm Axe it is a PC carrying out an attack and weakening armour / dislodging a scale / whatever-you-want-to-narrate and as the PC's only spot it when they gather themselves for the next round of battle; "hey look!".

If you don't accept that then fine, you'll need to come up with a solution (and you've already seen how complicated things can get) but my way of working with these two parts of the rules are simple, work perfectly well, and follow the RAW.

[Rich H]

Right. (I was posting from my phone earlier.) What I meant was that narrating that way makes the mechanical resolution of the previous round seem like it's nearly simultaneous, rather than discreet stages where everyone is queueing up and then going to make their attack at a particular moment. Your description makes it a flurry of blows, a moment of assessment, and then another flurry of blows as the heroes and enemies re-engage. I like that feeling.

Gotcha. Yeah, combat is pretty hectic, isn't it. Not quite simultaneous but we also have to remember that not every feint, parry, blow etc have a dice roll associated with them - there's a lot going on in a fight that isn't necessarily covered by explicit dice rolls or even rules. A shock to some (not saying you're one of them, Zed) I know!

[Earendil]

But I don't think that is perfectly clear.

Then you have my sympathies.

No need for sarcasm. People can have different interpretations of the same thing without trying to be contrary. Your reading isn't necessarily the most obvious one or the only sensible one just because it's yours.

What about Weak Spot? That has a similar effect

Similar affect, different circumstances. The dragon is making a specific attack so it gets the attention of the PCs and they notice the opening because of that. For Worm Axe it is a PC carrying out an attack and weakening armour / dislodging a scale / whatever-you-want-to-narrate and as the PC's only spot it when they gather themselves for the next round of battle; "hey look!".

If you don't accept that then fine, you'll need to come up with a solution (and you've already seen how complicated things can get) but my way of working with these two parts of the rules are simple, work perfectly well, and follow the RAW.

I think it's far simpler and more intuitive to use similar rules for two effects that actually do pretty much the same thing. One of them taking effect immediately and the other only taking effect some time later seems unnecessarily complicated.

The solution I finally arrived at is simple: treat Worm Axe like Weak Spot. Sure, it's not RAW, but it makes more sense to me. Part of the problem with an expanding ruleset scattered over multiple books is that different people's approaches get enshrined in the rules in different places, and they don't all play perfectly well together. TOR is as good as can be expected in this respect, but not perfect.