Using the Worm Axe

[bluejay]

This reward of Dwarves of the Grey Mountains has slightly unusual wording in its description and I'm interested to hear how others play it.

It says that if the character using the Worm Axe hits a scaled foe (such as a dragon or a troll) and rolls a Gandalf, then on the next round if anyone hits that same foe with a Piercing Blow it rolls a maximum of 1d for Protection (as the hooked Worm Axe has exposed a weak spot in the scales).

Firstly does that affect Attribute bonus if the foe currently has Protection as favoured?

Secondly the wording explicitly states that the weak spot is exposed on the next round.

Would that mean the following is correct?

Burin my Dwarf hits a Troll with his Worm Axe and rolls a Gandalf exposing a weak spot. The Troll rolls his protection roll as normal.

Beor my Beorning goes later in the same round and gets a Piercing result with his Great Spear. Again the Troll rolls his normal protection roll.

Next round if either Burin or Beor achieve a Piercing result on the Troll then it will roll a maximum of 1d.

As the wording stands that appears to be the case although it does lead to some unusual situations (in this case Beor having to wait a round to see the weak spot).

All thoughts welcome

[Earendil]

It says that if the character using the Worm Axe hits a scaled foe (such as a dragon or a troll) and rolls a Gandalf, then on the next round if anyone hits that same foe with a Piercing Blow it rolls a maximum of 1d for Protection (as the hooked Worm Axe has exposed a weak spot in the scales).

Firstly does that affect Attribute bonus if the foe currently has Protection as favoured?

I'd say "rolls a maximum of one success die" means that it can't roll any more success dice than that. But the Feat die is still rolled, and any other bonuses should still be applied. So yes, if Protection is favoured, I'd add the Attribute bonus.

Secondly the wording explicitly states that the weak spot is exposed on the next round.

Actually, what it says is "during the following round". I would interpret that as meaning for one round after this happens, i.e. until after the character with the Worm Axe takes their next action. So any of your allies who go later in the round than you will get the benefit during that round.

[bluejay]

Thank you for responding Earendil. Agree with you about the Attribute bonus. That's the way I've been using it.

I'd say that 'next round' and 'following round' are synonymous. The following round simply means the combat round that follows ... so either this current round or the next round. Either way has its issues.

If we take your interpretation to be correct (which I have to agree does feel the most intuitive) and it means the time until the character acts again then we get some other wrinkles.

For instance in my example below let's say Burin is in Forward Stance and Beor is in Open Stance. Burin hits with a Gandalf and exposes a weak spot. Beor takes advantage of it.

Next round, fearing for his safety Burin decides to retreat back into Defensive Stance while Beor remains in Open Stance. This means that Beor will get a second attack on the Troll (exploiting the weak spot) before Burin acts again.

Slightly more disturbingly, if Burin does the revese, moving from Defensive to Forward Stance then by this interpretation Beor doesn't get a chance to exploit the Weak Spot at all!

[Earendil]

Thank you for responding Earendil. Agree with you about the Attribute bonus. That's the way I've been using it.

I'd say that 'next round' and 'following round' are synonymous. The following round simply means the combat round that follows ... so either this current round or the next round. Either way has its issues.

I donlt really think they're completely synonymous. "On the next round" means, to me, on the round after this one. So if you use the axe in round 1, its effect would only kick in at the beginning of round 2. As you say, that seems weird. "During the following round" could mean that, depending on context, but could also mean for a period lasting 1 round from this point. So if you use the axe in round 1, its effect would kick in immediately, and last until that point in round 2. That seems a much more natural interpretation.

If we take your interpretation to be correct (which I have to agree does feel the most intuitive) and it means the time until the character acts again then we get some other wrinkles.

For instance in my example below let's say Burin is in Forward Stance and Beor is in Open Stance. Burin hits with a Gandalf and exposes a weak spot. Beor takes advantage of it.

Next round, fearing for his safety Burin decides to retreat back into Defensive Stance while Beor remains in Open Stance. This means that Beor will get a second attack on the Troll (exploiting the weak spot) before Burin acts again.

Slightly more disturbingly, if Burin does the revese, moving from Defensive to Forward Stance then by this interpretation Beor doesn't get a chance to exploit the Weak Spot at all!

You're right; I hadn't considered that the character might not act at the same point next round. (Indeed they might be knocked unconscious and not act at all.)

Okay, let's rephrase: it lasts for one round from that point. So as long as the character acts at the same time next round, it lasts until after their next action. If for any reason they don't do so, it lasts until they would have acted if they had done so!

Does that make sense?

[bluejay]

Thanks for continuing on this with me Earendil...

Assuming this interpretation was the intended one, even with your new corollary, we still have an issue.

Beor is in Forward Stance and Burin is Open Stance. Burin rolls a Gandalf against our Troll. The Troll then goes and strikes Burin dropping him to 0 Endurance.

Beor jumps to Defensive Stance next round as he now faces a Troll by himself (this extra colour is to demonstrate that these are reasonable actions and I'm not deliberately doing weird things).

If we take it that the 'round' we have defined lasts until Burin would have taken his action then Beor will miss the chance to exploit the opening from the Worm Axe.

This really feels like something where it's not really an issue until you think about it. I mean if this came up in a game we'd all make a reasonable adjudication but it's surprisingly tricky to write down in game terms.

I'd assume that something along the lines of "every character's next attack (provided it is their next action)" is where we're going here.

[Earendil]

I see your point, bluejay. I only skimmed your example earlier and didn't fully understand the problem.

I think that since switching to Defensive stance does mean you're going later in the round, if an option is only available for a limited amount of time it's not unreasonable that you may miss out on it. But I'm not happy with the corollary of that: by switching from Defensive stance to Forward, you could end up getting to take advantage of it twice.

In my experience, it's not something that happens all that much, but if you want to simply say it applies to the next attack everyone makes as long as it's their next action, that seems sensible. Actually I might rule that way myself.

It's more consistent, too, because that's how Weak Spot (from Rivendell, p69) works. In fact it doesn't even specify that it has to be their next action, but there's no way I'd allow someone to rally comrades for two rounds and then get the benefit when they attack on the third round!

[zedturtle]

I would say that it should be from one Stance phase to the next corresponding Stance phase, that's the cleanest terminology.

As for missing out on an opportunity by going Defensive, thems the breaks. You could have tried to one-shot the Troll thanks to the Worm Axe, but you played it too safe.

[bluejay]

By that ruling, Zedturtle, you get the chance for someone to take advantage of the weak spot twice.

Burin is in Open Stance and attacks with the Worm Axe getting a Gandalf. Beor is in Defensive and attacks the Troll taking advantage of the weak spot opened by the Worm Axe.

Next round Beor moves into Forward Stance and again gets to take advantage of the weak spot. I don't think you're intending for that result.

Like I said above I think we intuitively know what should happen but it's tricky to write it cleanly.

[zedturtle]

I'm actually okay with that result, because if Beor doesn't kill the troll, he's an easy target to get splatified.

[Rich H]

For me, it's perfectly clear as written:

"... during the following round, should you or your companions hit your foe with a Piercing Blow..."

So, in the next round of combat you and your companions all get a chance to take advantage of the weak spot in the worm's armour that has been uncovered. As LM I'd narrate, at the start of the new round, that the player-heroes can see the weakness in the creature's armoured scales and therefore they can now mechanically take advantage of this opening. Up until that point they weren't aware of the opening so couldn't exploit it as they were otherwise occupied; usually avoiding getting eaten!