Evil races in Middle Earth

[Erland Hakon]

The appendices use the words "at the end of the Third Age"

The question is the same: in an Age three thousand years long, how many years are "at the end of the Third Age"?
3?
30?
300?

[Rich H]

That's a good point: a lot of the monstrous beings in Middle-earth are the results of biological experiments by Morgoth or Sauron. Their heritage could be anything.

Or Saruman. He did create the Uruk-hai, after all.

Perhaps in Peter Jackson's Middle Earth but not in Tolkien's Middle Earth

There is some room for interpretation as to whether Saruman did breed his own stock of such orc-kin and what the Uruk-hai actually were - the same name could be used for two different types/strains of Orc, for example. Consider the following:

"We are the fighting Uruk-hai! We slew the great warrior. We took the prisoners. We are the servants of Saruman the Wise, The White Hand: The Hand that gives us man's-flesh to eat. We came out of Isengard, and led you here, and we shall lead you back by the way we choose."
- The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, Chapter 3, "The Uruk-hai".

Were Sauron's Uruk-hai powerful Black Orcs whereas Saruman's were cross-bred men and Orcs? Both using the same name? I think it's open to debate and further investigation but I personally go with this for my game; Sauron creating the first stock of such creatures and then Saruman following with his own and them being quite different in origin. I think the ambiguity creates more realism and allows for more than one interpretation - I quite like that for my campaign/interpratation of canon there is more than one truth to this and other elements of Middle-earth.

[Rich H]

The appendices use the words "at the end of the Third Age"

The question is the same: in an Age three thousand years long, how many years are "at the end of the Third Age"?
3?
30?
300?

Okay, here's the (quick) evidence I've collected on the subject in order to suggest a time for their appearance. First, a quote for the Uruk-hai:

"In the last years of Denethor I the race of Uruks, black Orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath."
- The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, Appendices

The above quote gives you more than 500 years between Sauron deploying a species of 'great' Orc and the War of the Ring. Did the Olog-hai follow after? I would suspect Sauron would have experimented and established the Orc strain first and then moved on to Trolls but did he work on one after the other? How quickly did one follow the other? When were they first used and how far did they range?

I'm not actually sure that the term Olog-hai appears in the story proper, I think its just within the appendices:

But at the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai they were called in the Black Speech. That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power. Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them. They spoke little, and the only tongue that they knew was the Black Speech of Barad-dûr.
- The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, Appendices

So, did they appear before the Necromancer was driven from Dol Guldur in Southern Mirkwood by the White Council or later after Sauron declared himself in Mordor? I would suspect the latter so would suggest it would be in the last 50 years, or so, of the Third Age.

[bluejay]

Well again if we use published TOR supplements as semi-official then Ruins of the North suggests that no one in the North knows of the Olog-Hai.

I agree with Rich regarding the general timeframe. Certainly sometime after The Quest of Erebor.

[Erland Hakon]

If all this Olog-Hai/Ogre discussion is about something that anything we could say, may be or not (since there is nothing anywhere to confirm definitively one way or other)... better not to tell the explanation in my campaign for the existence of giants.


[ I put the ring on my finger and I keep lurking again ]

[Rich H]

If all this Olog-Hai/Ogre discussion is about something that anything we could say, may be or not (since there is nothing anywhere to confirm definitively one way or other)... better not to tell the explanation in my campaign for the existence of giants.

Not at all, feel free to share. I've only quoted the bits from the appendices to provide information. If it works for your campaign to have Ologs (I constantly have to resist the urge to type 'Olgas' instead) appear earlier then go right ahead - it's your game and cool always trumps canon, at least it does for me. Although "cool + canon" is even better.

[bluejay]

If all this Olog-Hai/Ogre discussion is about something that anything we could say, may be or not (since there is nothing anywhere to confirm definitively one way or other)... better not to tell the explanation in my campaign for the existence of giants.


[ I put the ring on my finger and I keep lurking again ]

Well it would arguably be worse in Italian because ogre is 'orco' and indeed both words (ogre and Orc) are ultimately derived from the same source (the Latin word Orcus).

For my part I was really just adding how your theory fit in with the treatment in the TOR publications.

One interesting point is that:

(SPOILER)
in Ruins of the North the Olog-Hai is referred to as the Ogre Captain
(END SPOILER)

[Enevhar Aldarion]

That's a good point: a lot of the monstrous beings in Middle-earth are the results of biological experiments by Morgoth or Sauron. Their heritage could be anything.

Or Saruman. He did create the Uruk-hai, after all.

Perhaps in Peter Jackson's Middle Earth but not in Tolkien's Middle Earth

I read the books long before the movies ever existed and my interpretation of Tolkien's writing is that, yes, Saruman did create his own troops. The Man-Orc, capable of going out in full daylight without any of the pesky drawbacks that regular orcs/goblins had when out in the sun.

[Erland Hakon]

Not at all, feel free to share.

Well, one last message for now.

In my campaign giants are not oversized men, they are more similar to the one appearing in the game War in the North:


Lesser Maiars, more closely related to the land that took a form similar to rock. They are usually very reclusive (maybe timid?), something like Tom Bombadil in that sense, and they have decided to retreat into the depths of the Misty Mountains.

In an alignment D&D style they would be chaotic neutral, in the beginning of the world they were not in the side of the Valar neither in the Morgoth side.

[Glorelendil]

Why would these Ologs, given that they are creations of Sauron, appear in southern Mirkwood after he had abandoned Dol Guldur? Seems more likely to me that he was doing R&D with them while still in residence, his early models were tested on the locals (thus their appearance there), and then after he moved his operations to Mordor (much more favorite tax code) he started producing them in earnest.