How sacred is the Riddle Game?

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cuthalion
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Re: How sacred is the Riddle Game?

Post by cuthalion » Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:41 pm

T.S. Luikart wrote:The Riddle Game is sacrosanct - it's why Gollum burned. ;)
So it wasn't the corruption via Sauron's ring etc., it was breaking the ancient pact of riddles? That's quite the theory! Of course, in his defense, I think there's been discussion somewhere in the literature about the repercussions of Bilbo's last question not being a riddle at all? Let along the fact that Bilbo doesn't, truly, mean to ask it. It's quite the moral conundrum Tolkien actually ends up serving up--I wonder if he meant to end the game of riddles with one of his own, or he had an answer in mind . . .

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Erland Hakon
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Re: How sacred is the Riddle Game?

Post by Erland Hakon » Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:43 pm

T.S. Luikart wrote:The Riddle Game is sacrosanct - it's why Gollum burned. ;)
IMO it can be sacrosanct when done by mutual agreement and precisely because of that sacrosanct quality nobody can to impose on others to participate.
In other words I do not think a Riddle Game is sacrosanct at all when it is not done with the consent of both parties.

How goblins will Respond?
IMO ignoring the Riddle Game and attacking normally.
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zedturtle
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Re: How sacred is the Riddle Game?

Post by zedturtle » Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:05 am

I think both of you might be missing TS's wink there. I know that he knows why Gollum burned (it's Frodo's fault) and I think he's just having a bit of fun with the subject at hand.

To that subject, the Red Book has this to say:
J.R.R. Tolkien wrote:He knew, of course, that the riddle game was sacred and of immense antiquity, and even wicked creatures were afraid to cheat when they played at it.
So Glor's point about oaths seems relevant. But we also have:
ibid wrote:But he felt he could not trust this slimy thing to keep a promise at a pinch. Any excuse would do for him to slide out of it.
So breaking the sanctity of the riddle-game, especially on technicality, was perfectly possible. Which gives me another thought... the Dunlending just spouted off a riddle to the goblins, she hasn't actually challenged them to the Ancient Game yet...
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Erland Hakon
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Re: How sacred is the Riddle Game?

Post by Erland Hakon » Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:14 am

zedturtle wrote:the Dunlending just spouted off a riddle to the goblins, she hasn't actually challenged them to the Ancient Game yet...
That's exactly what I was trying to say (without success I suppose), someone asking a riddle to another is not a Riddle Game (or Ancient Game) and neither it is a Riddle Game (or Ancient Game) if the other one does not accept the challenge.
Erland Hakon wrote:IMO it can be sacrosanct when done by mutual agreement and precisely because of that sacrosanct quality nobody can to impose on others to participate.
In other words I do not think a Riddle Game is sacrosanct at all when it is not done with the consent of both parties.
-- All that is gold does not glitter --

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zedturtle
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Re: How sacred is the Riddle Game?

Post by zedturtle » Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:42 am

Erland Hakon wrote:
zedturtle wrote:the Dunlending just spouted off a riddle to the goblins, she hasn't actually challenged them to the Ancient Game yet...
That's exactly what I was trying to say (without success I suppose), someone asking a riddle to another is not a Riddle Game (or Ancient Game) and neither it is a Riddle Game (or Ancient Game) if the other one does not accept the challenge.
Erland Hakon wrote:IMO it can be sacrosanct when done by mutual agreement and precisely because of that sacrosanct quality nobody can to impose on others to participate.
In other words I do not think a Riddle Game is sacrosanct at all when it is not done with the consent of both parties.
Sorry... I should have acknowledged your point, which was well made.

I do think that a player hero responding in such a manner should be rewarded with a chance (however small) that they've somehow turned the tables. After all, you can argue that's exactly what Bilbo did (as we learn that Gollum usually pounced first and asked no questions later).
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cuthalion
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Re: How sacred is the Riddle Game?

Post by cuthalion » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:31 am

zedturtle wrote:I think both of you might be missing TS's wink there.
No--not missing it. I was playing along/teasing. (And then being contemplative.) Damnit, feel like I really just don't come across the way I mean to so often in type.

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zedturtle
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Re: How sacred is the Riddle Game?

Post by zedturtle » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:59 am

cuthalion wrote:
zedturtle wrote:I think both of you might be missing TS's wink there.
No--not missing it. I was playing along/teasing. (And then being contemplative.) Damnit, feel like I really just don't come across the way I mean to so often in type.
Text-only communication is very hard. I always feel like I'm overly apologetic and very wishy-washy. But succinctness has its own issues too... if folks don't pick up on the mood, it can easily come off as brusque. That's not at all a complaint towards you, just an observation in general.

I caught the contemplation, but not the teasing. And it is an interesting question... if Bilbo and Gollum had gone to court, what would the judge say? Is "What have I got in my pocket?" a riddle?
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Re: How sacred is the Riddle Game?

Post by Stormcrow » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:03 am

Tolkien himself suggests that it doesn't matter whether it was a fair question: Gollum accepted it and failed to answer it.

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Re: How sacred is the Riddle Game?

Post by Glorelendil » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:38 am

For the record (as the channeler of the slippery minded Dunlending in question) the purpose wasn't to commit the Goblins to a binding game of riddles, but to stall for time while the spider engaged their friends.
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Rich H
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Re: How sacred is the Riddle Game?

Post by Rich H » Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:20 am

Ignoring the riddle game, for a moment, I quite like the idea of a well placed riddle bemusing a couple of goblins. It feels more in keeping with something from The Hobbit; having a sort of faerie tale quality to it.
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