Orc tribes

[DavetheLost]

Yes, yes, YES! To more Men! Tolkien barely described the Southrons, Easterlings. Corsairs of Umbar etc marching with the hosts of Morder. I would love to see some of the their cultures further fleshed out. As well as more generic bandits and such. Just as the Orcs and goblins could do with more fleshing out.

One of the things that draws to Middle Earth is that it is not "generic" fantasy. Games and novels that have come after have pulled at least the look and general temperament of Elves, Dwarves, Rangers, etc straight from Tolkien, but often feel soulless. I think this is because they do not have the depth behind them that Middle Earth does. Cultures ebb and flow, kingdoms rise and fall. There is history and myth, legend and song. Often exposed as glimpses "These blades were forged in Gondolin long ago for the wars between Elves and Goblins." " The ruins had an evil look about them, as if they had been built by wicked men."

Let us see more depth to the world. Are there Men in Southern Mirkwood who fell under the sway of the Necromancer? What are they like? What of the "wicked Dwarves" Tolkien mentions but does not detail. What of ghosts and spirits beyond the Ring-Wraiths, the Barrow Wights and the Paths of the Dead?

[Rich H]

As well as more generic bandits and such

There's a whole section in my Additional Rules - link in my signature.

[Mim]

One of the things that draws to Middle Earth is that it is not "generic" fantasy. Games and novels that have come after have pulled at least the look and general temperament of Elves, Dwarves, Rangers, etc straight from Tolkien, but often feel soulless. I think this is because they do not have the depth behind them that Middle Earth does. Cultures ebb and flow, kingdoms rise and fall. There is history and myth, legend and song. Often exposed as glimpses "These blades were forged in Gondolin long ago for the wars between Elves and Goblins." " The ruins had an evil look about them, as if they had been built by wicked men."

DavetheLost,

You summarize this evocatively! This is exactly what sets Middle-earth apart from other settings, & ToR superbly captures this feel.

BTW, we've all been happily pilfering, er, using Rich's great links for quite a while - I highly recommend having a look at his references.

Thank you for reminding me about the 'wicked Dwarves.' I wondered how ToR could fit the Third Age equivalent of Petty-dwarves (or someone like them) into the game without encountering licensing restrictions, but we have a work around. If they write-up a culture of wicked Dwarves they'll be a blast to run. Ditto for any Men of Mirkwood who fall under the sway of the Necromancer, before or after his ouster. C7 is going to publish The Darkening of Mirkwood at some point, & this may very well have some variant of this theme.

Concerning the additional spirits & such, have you seen the Night-wight from TfW? He's a step in the right direction. So is the Gibbet King for that matter. Brr...

[Garn!]

I go to sleep and you all go crazy posting comments!

When I stated that using normal creatures is precluded in TOR, I meant for exactly the reasons already posted: Tolkien doesn't perceive or portray them as viable opponents as they're part of the natural world - not evil; SG/C7 handles encounters with natural creatures primarily as skill or travel checks.

A stat block could be written up, but if there were lots more creatures available (D&D equivalent levels), few games would make use of these natural opponents. (Right now, since we're all desperate for creatures, we would make use of them. Such usage would taper off as the bestiary grows.)

That said, if natural creatures were written up, they might be better off handled as generic stat blocks with a listing of variations to mimic specific creatures. Something akin to the original LMB Orc listing with the Weapon list. So there would be the Great Cat stat block with generic info followed by a listing with Puma, Lion, Cheetah, Mountain Lion, Jaguar, etc listed on it with alterations to the generic stat block to differentiate the cats. Otherwise it might become too complex for less favored creatures. Just a stray thought.

[Mim]

@Garn! You don't post so much of a 'stray thought' as you joke, because this is exactly how I'm handling them

I'm writing up simple stat blocks (just like the basic Orcs & such) for mundane creatures, & then just developing them via role-playing. Your Great Cat example is how I do it. Let's hope it works till C7/SG produces some more goodies for us.

[poosticks7]

any one got any ideas for some bolt on abilities for diffent orc tribes? Like my Dol Gulder example. They really need to be things that can be added to any kind of orc so I can't really use something like - Expert Shield fighter (for example) because not all types of orcsies use shields.


I have another two by the way:

Orcs of Emyn-Duir- All orc weapons count as poisoned as well as the normal called shot, because they harvest deadly mushrooms from under the Mountains of Mirkwood and smear the paste onto their weapons.

Orcs of the Grey Mountains: All orcs gain movement as a favoured skill, as grey mountain orcs are rugged and tough and expert mountain warriors.


If think they are alright, they might need a tweek though.

[SirKicley]

any one got any ideas for some bolt on abilities for diffent orc tribes? Like my Dol Gulder example. They really need to be things that can be added to any kind of orc so I can't really use something like - Expert Shield fighter (for example) because not all types of orcsies use shields.


I have another two by the way:

Orcs of Emyn-Duir- All orc weapons count as poisoned as well as the normal called shot, because they harvest deadly mushrooms from under the Mountains of Mirkwood and smear the paste onto their weapons.

Orcs of the Grey Mountains: All orcs gain movement as a favoured skill, as grey mountain orcs are rugged and tough and expert mountain warriors.


If think they are alright, they might need a tweek though.

These are good Pooh.

I don't know where it would fit (if at all); but what about one tribe being known for carrying a bad disease that the orcs are immune to; but is contagious when they are around non-orcs.

Like a Tick and transfers Lyme Disease or Rocky Mountain Fever, or a mosquito carries Malaria; but neither species if affected by it themselves. So the orcs carry the disease and transfer it, but are not affected.

So the questions then are who/where would be the appropriate tribe of orcs and why do they carry it? Do they typically have ticks perhaps? Or maybe they have "rabies" from the bats of a region......?

[Cordeval]

any one got any ideas for some bolt on abilities for diffent orc tribes?

Try bolting on abilities from the RAW special abilities for adversaries as well as skills adapted from the PC cultural rewards and virtues.

For guidance, Tolkien provides flavor and contrast for three orc types in the Two Towers during the chase across Rohan.
During "robust discussions" (as one might put it):
The Misty Mountain orcs complain they came down only to do mischief, mislike all the effort to achieve orders, and do poorly under bright light.
The White Hand uruks are tough and disciplined following orders with intelligence and great effort, not minding the sunlight so much.
The Mordor orcs are conniving and sneaky, mortally afraid of "HQ" and the Nazgul, try to steal away the prisoners, but are fairly disciplined in that they make sortie out of woods to assist the raiders.
They all like to eat man-flesh.

Of note, reinforced by the murder of the soldier by the snaga witnessed by Sam and Frodo in Mordor, they seem always to fight amongst themselves (usually to establish dominance like chimpanzees, but rougher). However, when faced with Free Peoples, they readily unite in what you could say is an admirable fashion if they were not the bad guys.

[Garn!]

Mim,
Good to hear that you are already finding success with the idea of generic creature stat blocks. Post samples and comments when you're happy with the results. Pretty Please?

Cordeval,
Another aspect of the White Hand Uruks, if I'm remembering things correctly, is that Saruman was able to mix the genes of Evil Men and Orcs to obtain the results you mention. Later on I think we also learn that Sauron has similar creatures but in smaller quantities. That implies Saruman figured out how to pull off the genetic engineering feat and Sauron copied (or stole via palantir) his successful technique.

[Tolwen]

Another aspect of the White Hand Uruks, if I'm remembering things correctly, is that Saruman was able to mix the genes of Evil Men and Orcs to obtain the results you mention. Later on I think we also learn that Sauron has similar creatures but in smaller quantities. That implies Saruman figured out how to pull off the genetic engineering feat and Sauron copied (or stole via palantir) his successful technique.

According to Tolkien, both Elves and Men are "biologically" the same species, which is the reason why interbreeding works with them without problems. The difference lies in their souls - not genes. The same would apply to orcs as corrupted versions of both, so IMHO biologically speaking, there is no big problem here. Tolkien mentioned that - given enough pressure by a superior evil power - Men can be degraded quickly within a few generations to an orc-like state. That implies somewhat that the techniques of mixing men and orcs were not that new, but Saruman used them with a new focus:
That being said, I guess that interbreeding with humans should be not a big secret, but Saruman was the first to use first-generation offspring of orc and men in numbers on the battlefield. Normally, only "pure" versions of this sort or the other were used.

Cheers
Tolwen