Problem with Songs in Combat

[Majestic]

I think my TOR campaign has been a lot of fun, and I think my players have enjoyed the game as well.

One concern I do have, however (and it's one issue that could be contributing to me and my group switching from TOR over to Adventures in Middle-earth) is the 'feel' of combats lately.

Now before you go on about how combat should only be a small portion of the game: yes, I know. Our game has historically had a great blend of Journeys, Encounters, and Battles. Right now, though, we're playing through the Darkening of Mirkwood. And not only did we just get done exploring a few years worth of the PCs dedicating themselves to full-scale battle (retaking the Greydelve). But now we're at the point where the Lamp of Balthi was just stolen (while the PCs were away), and the following adventures will likely see the PCs going to Fenbridge/Dol Guldur to rescue the captives, which will also likely involve some major skirmishes (possibly even with a Ringwraith), depending on how stealthy they choose to be.

My group has embraced the new rules about Songs from Rivendell. The party is made up of all Elves, and they've composed walking songs, victory songs, battle songs, and others. Their song list is pretty awesome.

Here's how combats have been shaking out, though:

The battle will go back and forth, with tough adversaries whittling down the Endurance of the PCs. Mostly my players will stay in Defensive stance, until one (or more) of them are knocked unconscious. At that point, one of them (or sometimes two) moves up and starts singing (Rally Comrades), restoring Endurance, and often "waking up" some of their fallen allies.

Eventually they end up being victorious, thanks largely to this 'healing' that they do via songs.

All that is fine and good, and might even seem okay if it wasn't happening so often. Often enough that it gets easy for my players to skip any narration and just go with "I sing"....[rolls dice]....everybody gets back 4."

More than anything, it doesn't really feel like anything from the books, even though singing is such a part of Tolkien's world.

One of the PCs is a Wanderer/Minstrel, so it makes sense that singing is her thing. But two of the others are good at Song, too (one has a ring that helps), and will sometimes take the singer/healer role.

In our combats it's become a de facto way of regular healing, giving the musically inclined PCs the feel of D&D clerics doing regular healing waves for the group.

Any thoughts or ideas on ways to improve this or make songs feel less like healing waves? They've got enough songs on their List of Songs that making them do a different one each time wouldn't help much.

[cuthalion]

Not totally sure how the "Singing Songs" rules from Rivendell interact with Rally Comrades--I don't think the rules mention sining songs in battle in particular? But assuming they are just making the regular Rally Comrades combat action, but favouring Song rolls, as you say, I think you could possibly be interpreting the rules a little generously.

I can see how you might think a character would wake-up mid-combat from the section on being Unconscious, under States of Health, p.129:

As soon as an Unconscious character gains one or more Endurance points, he wakes up immediately (whether he fell unconscious due to loss of Endurance or because he was Wounded after his Wounded box was already checked).

But check the section on Recovery on p. 130-131:

A character who fell Unconscious because his Endurance was reduced to 0, but wasn’t Wounded, is allowed to recover normally (and thus wakes up after a short rest).

I don't think I would allow players to sing/Rally companions awake in the middle of combat. The combat action description on p. 179 seems to support this too. It doesn't feel right--and it seems like it doesn't play right from what you're saying too.

Not sure if this helps much however, as you'd have to figure out re-ruling this with your players?

Maybe some more experienced LMs might know some particular enemy special attacks to draw them out of defensive, or otherwise just provide a block to their strategy and try to break them into new ground?

[Glorelendil]

Maybe the problem is that Endurance can't go below zero. Might be worth considering a house rule that you have to be able to hear a Song for it be effective.

[Rich H]

Yeah, if a PC is unconscious then I'd suggest they can't have endurance recovered through Rally Comrade etc as they can't hear anything. Doesn't even seem like a house rule to me just a bit of common sense adjudication on behalf of an LM.

[T.S. Luikart]

Rally Comrades is not intended to wake the unconscious. Arguably, some healing songs could.

Two suggestions off the top of my head, if you feel like your players are taking their singing for granted Majestic?

A) Wait till they face a particularly nasty foe, a clever, ancient Troll - a Ringwraith or similar creature - let the combat proceed the "way they are used to" and when they start singing:

The Troll throws back his head and roars so loud, you swear your bones will crack. {The Troll spends a Hate point.} You are all deafened (roll some dice) for... 6 combat rounds. You can barely hear yourselves think, no singing till the roaring in your ears subsides.

As you start to sing, the Ringwraith makes a clenching motion with his fist and you choke into silence.

B) Wait till your company has partially defeated a huge band of Goblins and Orcs and then the Orcs start singing, their terrible guttural voices echoing, and their comrades start standing back up...

"Where there's a whip, there's a way..."

[Deadmanwalking]

I must agree that I'm pretty sure Rally Comrades does nothing for unconscious people. They're unconscious and can't hear the singing. That's certainly the way the group I play in does it.

And it sounds like that's the problem, rather than the Song Rules from Rivendell.

[Glorelendil]

B) Wait till your company has partially defeated a huge band of Goblins and Orcs and then the Orcs start singing, their terrible guttural voices echoing, and their comrades start standing back up...

"Where there's a whip, there's a way..."

I particularly like this. Have the adventure start at an inn called "The Goose and Gander".

[bluejay]

I think the new extra combat options in the Adventurer's Companion also helps avoid that tendency to sit in Defensive. If it doesn't then you can also use some of the more powerful options for adversaries from Rivendell.

[Majestic]

Thanks for all the helpful input, everyone. Yeah, I think I've been too generous with the singing waking them up. I'd read the first part of what cuthalion wrote, but missed the part in Recovery.

I still might allow the occasional, heroic moment, for a magical, Elven song to wake another. But just making this change should help fix this issue.

Lots of other good ideas, here, too. I especially like the Troll one.

[Throrsgold]