Protection check and becoming weary - what applies first?

[Borri]

Today our hobbit needed to pass a protection check to avoid a wound and became wearied with the same hit. Question was, what to apply first? We couldn't find a ruling in the books.

Does he become wearied first and needs to pass the protection check without the 1s, 2s and 3s on his success dice or does he roll his protection check first and the weariness is applied after the check?

[Angelalex242]

You become wearied first. That's the point of the Axe of Az reward of the Dwarves. Not only are you rolling a protection test against a great axe, you're rolling a WEARY protection test against a great axe. Won't end well for ya.

If your hobbit player doesn't like that, remind him that's what the Brave at a Pinch virtue is for. Dealing with just this sort of situation.

[zedturtle]

Both effects (the Endurance loss and the Piercing Blow) are specified as happening immediately due to a qualifying roll. But the Piercing Blow specifies that it is in addition to the Endurance loss. For that reason (and the above notes about the way certain Rewards/Virtues work), I would say that the poor Hobbit is Weary for the Protection Test.

[doctheweasel]

They happen simultaneously, so if you weren't Wearied before the Piercing Blow, then that protection test is normal.

Axe of Az works just fine this way (it wearies someone for a whole combat).

[Rich H]

Agree with Zed and others; Wearied first then resolve the protection test (with the target being Wearied).

[doctheweasel]

Can someone explain what in the book makes them believe the protection test is explicitly after the endurance lost?

[mica]

RAW:
'In addition to causing the loss of Endurance points, any successful attack may inflict a Piercing blow:'

'In addition' has been interpreted as 'after' but need not necessarily be the case.

However the RAW also states:
'Characters hit by a Piercing blow must immediately make a Protection test to avoid being Wounded.'

Literal interpretation is before they annotate any loss of endurance so technically means before they are classed as weary.

[Rich H]

Can someone explain what in the book makes them believe the protection test is explicitly after the endurance lost?

I thought we were talking about the Axe of Az...

Axe of Az works just fine this way (it wearies someone for a whole combat).

Not really, if you go by the wording of that particular reward then the enemy is considered Wearied as soon as the player rolls his first Gandalf rune on the Feat die when attacking and therefore before the protection test of the enemy. This is because the enemy makes his protection test after the Feat die roll and the effect associated with it - ie, the effect is resolved and applied as part of the Gandalf result, the protection test occurs in response to a piercing blow, so follows afterwards; therefore the Wearying effect of the Axe has been applied to the enemy and their protection test.

[Falenthal]

Does he become wearied first and needs to pass the protection check without the 1s, 2s and 3s on his success dice or does he roll his protection check first and the weariness is applied after the check?

I wouldn't put my hand in the fire for either option, but I play it so that all the effects (Weary and Wounded) are applied at the end of the attack resolution. Therefore, the Protection test is made un-Weary.

[Angelalex242]

From the OP, this is not explicitly an Axe of Az question. However, I used Axe of Az to extrapolate that if you are wearied by a blow, the protection test is made wearied. Of course this applies to enemies too, and PCs like that rule a whole lot better when it applies to the bad guys.

Unless we're doing the double standard thing where heroes get to make it unwearied and villains have to make it wearied. I prefer a more even board though.