Skill challenges?

[tomcat]

Hello everyone! I have been running my TOR campaign for over two years now but I haven't posted here too much. I am hoping you guys can help me break open some logic here.

First, let me explain what my goal is:

In our game, Ruithel was not kidnapped by dwarves, but orcs out of Gundabad. I want to make the search for Ruithel a fun challenge, but not just your standard roll 10 successes before 4 failures and you find her.  I want to make it dynamic and have the path of the orcs fluctuate, as much as the players. I want to make an "if - then" kind of set up - or search web.

The idea is the players would roll a Hunting test and dependent on the roll, it would take them one direction on the web to whatever pre-positioned encounter, or hazard, or nothing that might be at that location. I have attached a picture to try an illustrate what I am talking about.



So essentially, the party is starting at the circle of called Clan Argil. They made their first successful Hunting skill and it moved them to the first start location of the web. Now, here is where it becomes an issue.

I have run a number of dice tests over the last three days based on a character's hunting skill (3d) and the results are staggering the number of successes for his PC. The predominant number of successes are at the TN's based on the region - 16, 18, and 20. So, it is little challenge for the charcater to follow along the standard challenges to the eventual success of finding Ruithel along the web.

So, I thought I'd do an aggregate based TN for a prolonged action which would require all of the players to roll a hunting roll and the sum of their rolls would determine which direction they moved on the web. For example, everyone rolls and the sum is a 41. I would then compare that to the TN's on the web and a range of 36-39 would be the confluence of the rivers (non-fordable), a 40-41 would be a non-fordable river encounter, and 42+ would mean the right direction AND finding the ford.

This takes out the standard TN's that are becoming increasingly negligible in many instances now. It also would mean a Hope point really does matter and would become a valuable limited resource.

This worked out well, but it removes the value of the EYE , the  Tengwar , and the  G-rune. My idea being that a great or extraordinary success would make a double step towards finding Ruithel, where a G-rune might make a triple step. What I mean by this is, the players wouldn't be going all the way to Gundabad, having caught up to her along the way. The  EYE would mean an encounter or a Hazard...well, in my test rolls EYE 's were a rarity and I thought, what is the fun in that?

I've looked at the standard Journey rules and again, the TN's are kind of becoming a joke. In my test rolls of the feat die and 3 success dice, I hit the Daunting TN 20 six out of twelve times and one of those rolls was considered an Epic result with a  G-rune and Tengwar.

Now I don't want to drag the game into some mechanical nightmare, but I would love to have a little exploration into using skill challenges that give neat results. In my pic, you see that if a failed roll out of Argil's camp is made, you go to the confluence of the rivers - and you can't ford there. Well, if I use the standard TN's, I have to jack it up pretty high to make it a challenge and there is no justification for it.

So I am running this out to you guys - what do you all think? What would be a cool play of using skills in this format? How would you tie in the special dice? I would love to see it to get to the point where the PC's might despair and hope needs to play a part. I also want it to reflect that if they DO get a streak of good rolls, that not only are they on the right path of the web, they are catching up to the kidnappers.

So, I am looking to any analytical minded folk out here to see what they might do. If no one has any input, I will just come up with a simple play and move on. But I'd rather have some neat exploration that isn't a railroad, isn't necessarily easy or difficult, but based on chance (and some skill).

I look forward to any input!

Thanks in advance.

[Wbweather]

I can think of a couple of things that might help. Could something happen that forces the party to be weary? That would certainly make successes less common. Perhaps a thunderstorm rolls in or they get ambushed by a group of wargs?

Then again, the weather could turn against them and the TN for hunting rolls is increased by 4 due to flood waters washing away the clear tracks they have been following. Something along those lines might be useful if you want to keep to the standard game mechanics.

I really like the idea you have set up here. Let us know how it goes.

[zedturtle]

Here's a link to a couple of different ways of visualizing the chances for various skill types. In short, succeeding at TN 20 tests with a skill level of 3 should only happen about 25% of the time. Having it happen 50% of the time is a bit extraordinary (of course in a few rolls anything can happen.... the chances for each entry in my table are calculated by making TEN MILLION rolls per entry).

Using random success/failure might be a way to do it. It might also be interesting if there's a couple branches where the heroes have important choices to make... orcs on the move tend to be very destructive to the surrounding are. Maybe they have a choice between following a clear trail and helping save farmers from a burning building that the orcs set alight for their amusement. That sort of stuff.

[Glorelendil]

I've wrestled with similar issues while trying to design my Underground Journey rules. It's hard.

One thing it led me to was to wonder why in so many games the combat is really fun but the other "pillars" (exploration and social interaction) are kind of boring. You know, "I'll try to convince the guard that the king is actually a dopplegänger and the real king is moments away from death." "Ok, roll Persuade."

I have figured it out (yet) but here are some considerations. In combat, but usually not in the other pillars:
1) A bad roll or even a series of bad rolls doesn't mean it's over. You're just in a worse spot.
2) Success requires a broad range of complementary skills. If everybody specializes in the same skills you're not as effective as a team.
3) Everybody gets to participate.

The conclusion I reached with underground journeys is that requiring a certain number of successes, no matter how much lipstick you put on the pig, is still just a sustained skill test. And too much clever mathematics behind the mechanics makes it feel like...a clever mathematics problem.

I think in the case you're describing I would try to find a solution other than abstract dice rolls. Maybe come up with a series clues/obstacles/hazards they have to bypass/solve/defeat.

[Falenthal]

Yes, it's challenge that is pending in the TOR rules: to make pursuits and trackings interesting.

The examples of official adventures with them that I can think of are: finding clues about the dwarves passage in The Marsh Bell (specially part three, p.295-296); tracking Oderic in Kinstrife & Dark Tidings (TfW p.50); exploring the ruins of Fornost Erain for clues about the Green Company in Concering Archers (RotN p.65-68).

In general terms, how I've played (or would play) them is that every certain number of successes (2 or 3), the group finds something remarkable. The adventures don't tell you to ask for some tests to understand or interpret the tracks found, but I think it's needed to make the tracking interesting.

For example, telling the group "you've found an abandoned boat. It looks that the dwarves left it here in a hurry. Go on rolling the dice" isn't interesting.
Describing the boat, but then allowing them to inspect it, inspect the surroundings, finding marks on it that have to be identified, etc makes it more appealing to the players.
At some other point they may find a traveller. He is wary of strangers on the road, so an Encounter or simply some Song, etc skill tests are needed to gain information from him.
And so on.
In the official adventures, usually it seems that either the players only get information, but have no chances to interact with it (see Kinstrife), or the encounters have no direct impact on the pursuit itself other than weakening the heroes (see the Gallows-weed and Gore Crows from The Marsh Bell).
A mixture of both might be interesting. Or also using the examples of the Gallows-weed/Gore Crows to design special Hazards should an Eye be rolled during the pursuit, or a Revelation Episode be triggered.

What I struggle with, and what you seem to be asking is: what happens if the group finds something (the boat, the traveller) and fail their tests?
The quick answer is: they have to spend more days searching/the escaping orcs are nearer to their goal. This can imply more Fatigue tests if they spend many more days searching due to failed tests, or even Corruption tests if they are in Blighted lands. This should be explained as false tracks, bad weather that erases the footprints, a muddy terrain near a marsh where it's difficult to find traces,...
Also, you can determine how many days it takes for the orcs to reach Mount Gundabad, for example. Once the company has exhausted that time, they've lost the kidnappers and the captive. Or they should try a daring rescue. The adventure wouldn't be over, but their failures leaved them in a very bad situation. Good luck with that.

If I manage to think of something more specific and clear, I'll come back to post it.

[Rich H]

Trying to keep this relatively simple and in line with such rules outlined in the TOR material published, I put together some Chase rules/guidelines, based on commentary from posters here (esp. Stormcrow), for my gaming as follows: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79541775/Chases.pdf.

I think these could provide a little value here however they *just* handle the distance between the two parties rather than different options/decision points within the chases. I think that the two can be combined though - I could easily see opportunities within a chase where the LM offers options to the player-heroes of varying difficulty where the players can decide to go a safer route (eg, follow the trail of the orcs) or take a short cut (eg, predicting where they are heading or navigating more difficult terrain). In such instances the former type of action would only lead to a reduction in distance in the greatest of successes, whereas the latter option would have higher TNs but could close the gap between parties more than playing it safe. Obviously Hazards could be thrown in as additional challenges for the companions to overcome.

In some cases (it'd take the right gaming group) I could even see some mileage and lots of fun in laying out the 'web of options' in the initial post along with little hints at specific nodes or paths and let the players use that to plot their pursuit strategy. I know my players would respond positively to such a thing and use it as part of the narrative and in RPing their characters. Wouldn't work for all groups though and could be seen as bringing complexity to the table where it isn't really needed.

[tomcat]

First let me say thanks to you all for your input! I appreciate it very much!

I like the Chases pdf, Rich H. I downloaded it and will keep it as a resource.

For those interested, I did manage to make my Search for Ruithel upper vales web. I will explain below.

This is the web at its most basic. Understand, each downward line represents a path the PC's might be following towards Gundabad, through the Upper Vales. One is longer and not directly on their course, the other two mean they are having greater success. There will be a total number of tests that will be allowed before the orcs reach Mt. Gundabad.



1) The search will be broken into parts and each will involve the PC's needing to roll a Hunting test, Travel test, and an Explore test (TN set by the region of Upper Vales they are in). If they add another test in to add to story, that is fine with me, but these three tests will drive the search.

2) Hunting tests will work two-fold. Each PC will roll against the TN and must succeed to provide any benefit, BUT the aggregate of everyone's rolls will also apply. I did this because I want more than one player throwing a Feat die - the more Feat die, the more opportunity for grand successes and potential threats.

3) The aggregate of the Hunting rolls must exceed 45+ score. This secures that the companions are on the right path towards Ruithel and thus move the party 1 step closer to her rescue. She is a number of steps away known only to me, of course.

4) If a PC also achieves the area TN on the Hunting test, they will gain 1 additional step closer (2 steps for great success; 3 steps for extraordinary)

5) An EYE result has a negative effect by reducing the progression towards Ruithel by 2 steps and determines a hazard or encounter.

6) If the aggregate of the Hunting roll is less than 45, the company might be moving closer, but not necessarily on the right path (determined by my required scores). An encounter, hazard, or other narrative will occur.

7) Each group Hunting roll is considered a day's worth of searching and traveling. A Travel test is required against the TN of the region the PC's are within. A failed test will increase the PC's individual fatigue and an EYE can produce a hazard.

8) Finally, an Explore test is needed for each PC, again with a TN based on the region. If successful, the PC has made themselves a comfortable camp to get solid rest each night.

9) If a successful camp is made, END is restored at the normal rate (based on wounded or not) and the PC loses 1 level of Fatigue for that night's sleep.

10) If failed, neither END or FATIGUE is restored.

Anyway - that is it. I will see how it comes together.

[Indur Dawndeath]

I always enjoy reading other LMs ideas for a chase or adventure, but I must say that I find your approach a little confusing.
Why not keep the assignments and let the Hunter do the hunting. Let the Scout find a place to rest and the Guide build the camp and the Look-out keep watch.

You can challenge each player in his area of expertise with specific obstacles. It has worked very well for me.

Use Rich ideas for inspiration, how they can gain on the orc party. Let the Scout find a shortcut with Explore. Roll Athletics for forced march... etc.

Just my 2 cents, it's your game

[jamesrbrown]

I have often thought of making exploration and tracking more interesting in my games rather than just using prolonged actions. I quite like the idea of mapping out various paths and locations and marking them on a map and then detailing those locations. Doing this, I would leave all the major decisions to the players involving actions and directions, while allowing successful Athletics, Explore, Hunting and Search rolls to yield specific clues or advantages.

For example, if the player-heroes were hunting a fleeing enemy in the wilderness, a successful Hunting roll would allow them to pick up tracks in the right direction, leading them to a location closer to their prey. A failure would give them no information and they would be forced to guess the right direction. If they guessed right, they could attempt to find tracks in the new location. If they guessed wrongly, there would be no tracks to find, or the Loremaster could throw them off by letting them find false tracks on a success.

I would probably follow the same rule used for ambushes when multiple heroes are attempting something together: all must succeed to gain any benefit. However, a great success can cover the failure of one other character and an extraordinary success two other characters.

In a particularly difficult location, an Orientation test might be required to keep sense of direction. If at least one companion does not pass the test, they all become lost or confused. The Loremaster could choose a random direction for them to wander, veering from the path they had been taking.