Escaping Combat

[Hermes Serpent]

Rich, I use the zipped file to search for old threads as it's easier than using clickdev but I can't find a thread where Francesco discusses Escaping combat.

I wonder if it was there or one of the other forums that had TOR discussions. The RAW don't seem to me to be to hard to follow but then my native language is English and I can deal with some pretty convoluted examples of the written word.

Whether the roll for escaping is done at the end of the turn, during your action or before the start of the turn hardly matters as it's effectively the same - you run before the next turn starts or stand there looking foolish with your mouth agape if you don't make the roll.

The only thing is if you can make an attack or not.
Intimidate Foe says: "may forego his chance to make an attack roll"
Rally Comrades says: "may forego his chance to make an attack roll"
Protect Companion says: "the protecting hero may choose to spend a point of Hope and become the target"
Prepare Shot says: "may spend an entire round preparing a ranged attack, and get a clearer shot the following round. "
and
Escape Combat says: "At the end of a combat round spent fighting in a close combat stance, a player-hero may attempt to escape the field by making a roll of Athletics."

It doesn't says "forgo his chance to make an attack roll" to make the escape attempt so you don't lose your attack for that round. Only if you fail the test do you lose your next chance to attack. It hardly matters if the test is made immediately after the hero finishes his turn or if the test is made when all the heroes have taken their turn or at the start of the next turn before stances are chosen as the first thing is the movement out of contact and leaving the area for both rearward stance heroes and those in close combat stances who pass their Athletics test.

[Rich H]

Agreed Hermes, well explained!

I think personally I'd apply some consistency to all those combat options and have the character forego their attack when attempting to escape combat. It makes more sense to me from consistency of game design (ie, combat options) and also from a 'real world' point of view - although that one's certainly completely subjective to how a person visualises combat!

[Hermes Serpent]

Rich, without checking my book when does declaration of intent take place?
IIRC it's when your turn to act comes around so doing a check of the tactical situation at the start of your hero's turn provides the input for your choice of tactic; fight, flee or sing for example.

I see the flee option as happening when your allies are falling back or moving to Defensive stances and you have few endurance points left and the enemy is still present in significant numbers. If you dropped your enemy on your last turn and a new adversary has moved to engage you I'd say it's time to consider making a run for it with your life, if not your dignity, intact.

Now RAW allows for a final strike against your opponent but I might make a decision that if your hero chooses to engage/attack then it's harder to disengage particularly if you aren't in defensive stance. Contrarily if your hero is in defensive stance from last turn and chooses not to strike as the enemy moves in I would probably make it slightly easier to turn and run.

I think that a LM needs to ability to think on their feet with situations like this to keep the game flowing and the narrative working to provide the great story you know is there. The rules are there as guidelines and aren't set in concrete.

[Rich H]

I think that a LM needs to ability to think on their feet with situations like this to keep the game flowing and the narrative working to provide the great story you know is there. The rules are there as guidelines and aren't set in concrete.

I don't disagree but what you've said here not what I was commenting on in the discussion. Before this comment we were discussing the RAW and what it said and I suggested that I'd change it to apply consistency across the combat options although I'm not precious about it either way hence why I finished with the subjective comment.

Another reason (which is perhaps behind Francesco's decision to write the rules like they were) is that the Escape Combat TN is 10 + highest attribute of the opponent they are facing. You could interpret that as an opponent they are in direct close combat contact with and if that's the case then if they are defeated then the TN to escape would only be 10 (as the PC would no longer be facing an adversary in direct melee). With that in mind, Escape Combat would be:

10 if no longer directly facing an opponent in melee.

10 + Highest attribute level of an opponent they are facing in melee (a great or extraordinary success required to escape from multiple opponents).

[Angelalex242]

In the interest of relevant attributes doing something, maybe they could reduce the TN to flee by 2? The swift character should have at least an easier time of making tracks.

However...this game also has a 'Valor' attribute. I might want to say having high Valor REDUCES your chance of fleeing...thus, the TN to flee is 10+Valor-3. The brave do not fear the grave, after all!

(Why Valor-3? So a wimpy newbie character with Valor 1 actually has TN 8 to flee (how cowardly of him!), while them mighty valor 6 dude considers fleeing beneath him most of the time, and thus starts TN 13.)

I'd also rule you can't increase your Valor stat if you flee from combat even once during the adventure session. 'Brave Sir Robin Ran Away' is the only reward of a cowardly character, after all!

[helghast]

Dear gentlemen, here it is, I finally found it:

Thank you Rich for the link to the zip. file

The thread was "Engagement - Rules Questions"

It`s becoming interesting with Francesco`s post from March 1st 2012:

Sorry, I'm in a hurry right now and cannot read the thread. Are you asking about whether combat tasks require a companion to forfeit their attack roll when their turn to take action comes?

Intimidate Foe: yes, intimidating requires to forfeit your attack.

Rally Comrades: forfeit as above.

Protect Companion: you don't forfeit your attack. Spend Hope and be attacked in place of the character you protect.

Prepare shot: forfeit, as you spend the round doing nothing but aim.

Were these the right answers? If ot, can someone summarise the questions? Sorry... smile.gif

Francesco


JB`s answer:

Francesco, that really answers the question for the first four combat tasks, but what about Escape Combat?

The rules say, "Companions engaged in close combat may attempt to escape when their turn to act comes." Then, "At the end of a combat round spent fighting in a close combat stance, a player-hero may attempt to escape the field by making a roll of Athletics." Which is it? "When their turn to act comes?" Or "at the end of a combat round spent fighting?"

Francescos final answer regarding the topic Combat Tasks (incl. Escaping Combat):

I see, the text is quite confusing... sad.gif

The rule should have been similar for both instances (hero in Rearward and hero in any close combat stance), with a companion being allowed to flee (or try to) at the beginning of a round following a round of combat.

- If you fought the previous round in rearward, you may escape automatically at the beginning of your following round.

- If you fought the previous round in any close combat stance, you may attempt to escape at the beginning of your following round by making a roll of Athletics, etc.

Francesco
P.S.: Any other interpretation makes fighting in rearward somewhat less advantageous as far as escaping is concerned, the opposite of the intended meaning (potentially, you could escape combat more quickly in close combat than in rearward...).

So nothing to guess or discuss anymore. Clear words by Francesco solve any "RAW-problem"

[Hermes Serpent]

The answer quoted says nothing about striking your opponent when abandoning the field which was I believe the one thing left that the rules don't address except by omission or comparison.

[Dunkelbrink]

The answer quoted says nothing about striking your opponent when abandoning the field which was I believe the one thing left that the rules don't address except by omission or comparison.

I'd say it's pretty clear with Francesco's answer in front of me; you declare your attempt to flee the battle at the beginning of a round. If you succeed (roll of Athletics necessary only if you fought in close combat last round), you have managed to escape and is no longer part of the combat (i.e. you cannot attack). If you fail, you lose your attack for that round and can try again the next round.

Magnus

[helghast]

I`m with you Dunkelbrink.

The point about" striking your opponent when abandoning the field" becomes absolutelly obsolete, after you have left the combat, whether by "Athletics" check or automatically (because of rearward stance in the last combat round).

Why should someone have an attack / or being attacked, after successfully fleeing the field ?

[Hermes Serpent]

Part of the problem I have is that Francesco's hurried response completely rewrites the section on escaping combat changing the sequence of events without providing anything more than it's not clear as written so here's couple of lines to tide you over.

If you are going to rewrite a section of the rules you really need to provide a concise considered paragraph of what you intended, why it was written that way and why you have now completely changed the original meaning.

The decision to escape originally was written to occur either at the beginning or at the end of your turn and appeared to not exclude striking an enemy before you attempted to leave in the latter case. The scribbled notes now say you attempt to flee at the beginning of a round i.e. when stances are selected. He doesn't even use round and turn consistently with their usage in the rules.

Like the Revised Journey Rules this might muddy the waters with different groups using revised or unrevised rules with no consistency in place of a proper official set of errata, revisions and variant rules.

Reviews that suggest another editorial pass was necessary seem to be on the money when we are still coming across issues like this so long after the rules were originally published.