What is a "good road"?

[Terisonen]

Rebuilding the Forest Road would be a HUGE project, taking years or even decades and many, many workers. The Shadow returns to Mirkwood long before such a project could be completed.

I mostly agree with that. Some patch of road might be cleaned and watched but doing this for hundred of miles is beyond the possibility of a bunch of player. However, may be the dwarf can provide more worker to the project?

[Otaku-sempai]

I mostly agree with that. Some patch of road might be cleaned and watched but doing this for hundred of miles is beyond the possibility of a bunch of player. However, may be the dwarf can provide more worker to the project?

Well, I don't believe that anyone is suggesting that player-heroes would provide more than a tiny fraction of the total labor involved. Heroes with a high Status might influence King Dain to put more effort into the project.

[Stormcrow]

Dwarves don't build things any faster than men. They build sturdier and according to the art of their own craft, which is often ornate and careful. Dwarves are patient. They are also a depleted people and do not have children often.

No, laying a road all the way across a forest the size of England by slow, patient, dwindling dwarves would certainly take decades. They might accomplish it after the War of the Ring, but not before.

The Numenoreans, at the height of their power, could have done it in a few years, I expect.

[Otaku-sempai]

Yes, but the Dwarves would not have had to start from scratch. Much of the work would have been restoration, a major exception being the eastern end of the Road, which has been engulfed by the marshes.

In any case, the Old Dwarf Road is only about half as long as England (over 400 miles), or 2/3 its breadth (300 miles).

[Rich H]

A good road these days is hard to find!

Ahhh... Feargal Sharkey.

[Arthur Fisher]

No, laying a road all the way across a forest the size of England by slow, patient, dwindling dwarves would certainly take decades. They might accomplish it after the War of the Ring, but not before.

The Darkening of Mirkwood says it takes as few as 5 Fellowship Phases. I think if it was meant to take decades, then the mechanics would make it take decades. If it wasn't possible then the mechanics certainly wouldn't provide rules for it.

You're repairing an ancient, magic road; not laying a new one. And it takes, at least, 5 times as long as learning how to talk to birds.

[Rich H]

No, laying a road all the way across a forest the size of England by slow, patient, dwindling dwarves would certainly take decades. They might accomplish it after the War of the Ring, but not before.

The Darkening of Mirkwood says it takes as few as 5 Fellowship Phases. I think if it was meant to take decades, then the mechanics would make it take decades. If it wasn't possible then the mechanics certainly wouldn't provide rules for it.

You're repairing an ancient, magic road; not laying a new one. And it takes, at least, 5 times as long as learning how to talk to birds.

Like you state, the guidelines in DoM suggest at least 5 undertakings to accomplish this and I think that is in danger of trivialising the endeavour, personally.

This is a road in a massive amount of disrepair where the forest, influenced by Sauron, has actively sought to damage and destroy it where possible. I think each LM would have to ask himself how much resource the Dwarves are willing to commit to this task as my feeling is that for it to be completed across just 5 undertakings it'd mean a vast input from Durin's folk. And then when Sauron declares in Mordor and sends three Nazgul back up North, rouses the Werewolf and a number of other creatures then it will make the task nigh impossible; as the free peoples' close ranks and withdraw to safe(r) lands.

Personally, I chuckled at the guidelines in DoM as being incredibly optimistic. There wasn't even reference to any Adventuring Phases commiting time to the task, which apart from feeling a bit unrealistic also misses out on some interesting opportunities for exploration, battles to cleanse the forest, political undertakings to convince the Woodmen to help, etc. In my campaign the PCs have accompanied Balin; first travelling the length of the old road and then investigating the east edge of the road and the marshes. Both these adventures were extremely difficult and Dwarves and soldiers of Dale were lost during them - this made Bard wary of helping further but didn't deter Bofri, who was sent to the west side of the road. His task should be slightly easier at that side of things but only for so long (time and distance considerations here).

To just allow such an undertaking to be resolved in (at least) 5 fellowship phases is really missing a fantastic opportunity and something that should require sweat, blood and death to reclaim and I'm sure was only presented within DoM in such a way due to the limitations of space. I think more is implied when you consider some of the adventures in that campaign in and around the area of the Dwarf Road and that LM's would expand and add further ones should the players solely focus on achieving this task and make it the main objective of their campaign. I could certainly design a full campaign around such an idea.

[Stormcrow]

I think more is implied when you consider some of the adventures in that campaign in and around the area of the Dwarf Road and that LM's would expand and add further ones should the players solely focus on achieving this task and make it the main objective of their campaign. I could certainly design a full campaign around such an idea.

That's a pretty good idea. This isn't just laying down some asphalt with a steamroller; the Dwarf Road could probably be considered a Wonder of the World in the context of Middle-earth, or at least be in the ballpark. We're talking about laying down paving stones by hand over hundreds of miles. The stones will have to be quarried and shaped, either in the Mountains of Mirkwood—which would have to be cleared of their infestations first—or far away, in which case transport becomes a major enterprise. And dwarves won't just throw down any old stones; they'll craft every one perfectly, and set them perfectly. Repairing a road doesn't just involve rearranging the paving like a puzzle. An advance scout would have to precede the main workforce, deciding what can be reused and what must be replaced. The road itself would also have to be defended from encroachment by orcs, spiders, and other things. Supplies for the workers and defenders have to be delivered from Dale and Lake-town. The Dwarf Road project would require massive support, giving adventurers PLENTY to do.

But five years? No way.

[Rich H]

So, lets just turn this around a bit...

You're the LM of a campaign and the players enquire about clearing the whole length of the Old Dwarf Road through Mirkwood, some of the most dangerous lands in Wilderland and during the rise of Sauron and all his agents and followers.

Do you think you'd come up with them requiring 5 Fellowship Phases to do this (note, not even year end ones) or would you create something with a little more 'oomph' to it and interweave all kinds of interesting events/adventures as well as some year end phases?

Which do you think your players would find the most interesting and involving? And once completed would feel like they actually achieved something? From where I'm sitting, I know what I'd prefer along with my players. Accomplishing such a "great deed" should really take more than 5 FPs and as LM's we can make it far more interesting than just that; resolving it in such a way feels like a really lazy approach to me. It has far more potential than that.

Even those 5 listed FP undertakings have potential to be more interesting as adventures. Think about what could be done with:

• The clearing of the forest - action involving various extended tasks and verious geographic challenges
• The recovery of the forts - potential for exploration and investigation; uncovering secrets, etc
• The restoration of the road itself - less inspiring but I could see an opportunity for a crafting subsystem
• Patrolling the woods - this one is pretty obvious; exploration/battles/etc
• Sending messengers to attract trade - politics and encounters if the PCs go rather than sending others

Add to that the potential for:

• Sending representatives to the Woodmen and Elves for aid and support (and convincing the Dwarves that they need such support)
• Sauron's agents responding to the undertaking etc
• As the Shadow rises the need to convince allies to continue and sustain the effort when they feel resources could be best deployed elsewhere
• And if successful the impact that the reclamation of the road has on the War of the Ring, linking East and West, extending the influence of the Dwarves and Dale etc

What other dynamics could be at play?

[Although this could probably do with a new thread...]

EDIT: There's also an additional reference in DoM later with regard to Mogdred (year 2956): "His men have the strength and numbers to help Bofri the Dwarf rebuild it. If the council approves this option, then Mogdred’s aid will allow the road to be reopened within ten years."

And here too (2965): "A band of Dwarves travelling along the Elf-path are going to join Bofri son of Bofur (page 130) in his quest to reclaim the Old Forest Road."

And (2973): "Bofri and the other Dwarves who came south to open the Old Forest Road are found dead in one of their waystations. From the signs, it seems that they were attacked by banditsor warriors from Dol Guldur.

There's a lot to be said for making this a slow-burn and more taxing undertaking. Even just going with 5 undertakings to achieve it, I'd assert that each of those individual tasks/steps take (overall) more than one year each to complete (ie, the PCs actions + Dwarves) as they are all ongoing and need constant attention, so I wouldn't allow them to be taken in consecutive (year end) Fellowship Phases and would argue that they require repeated commitment. I still think using the half-page from DoM plus those other quotes would be best expanding into a combination of adventures and interesting extended actions etc. Far more satisfying.